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  • #205032
    Anonymous
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    This has been turning in my mind for some time and I’m a bit confused on the issue but I’ll try and make sense as best I can. So back when I was seriously dating a ‘non-member’, I received a bit of flak from my ward leadership and older family members, essentially cautioning me against the relationship as it could have led to marriage, a non-temple marriage. As an aside, I’m not angry or bitter about it (at the time I was mostly annoyed), they were doing what they thought was right: saving me from a non-eternal marriage.

    While I could see where they were coming from, I figured that if we were married on earth, couldn’t we just be sealed after my then-husband would die? Or after we were both dead? I’ve heard people pose tricky sealing questions before; widows married to other men and vice versa, mistakes in geneological records…and the answer given, and I’m pretty sure it has some backing from ‘higher up’, is that “it will all work out in the end.” Essentially, we might make mistakes here, but God isn’t going to force Sister Smith, who was recorded as Sister Jones, to be eternally sealed to some guy she didn’t know because the humans messed up.

    But then D&C 132 says something else. Unless I’m reading it wrong, it pretty much says that people married for ‘time’ only will not be permitted to be married in the next life, but will flit about as ministering angels. So…is that only the LDS people who knew better? Because it obviously can’t apply to those who had no knowledge of such an ordinance. What am I missing? Why can’t some people be sealed in the next life? Why won’t it all ‘work out in the end’ ? Does this make sense?

    #231017
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Good question, and I have wondered about this too. There are some people who have received multiple posthumous ordinations – look up Charlemagne for example, an ancestor of many Europeans – he has numerous duplicate records as well. Has Charlemagne therefore had several chances to receive baptism?

    #231018
    Anonymous
    Guest

    This whole business of sealing has led to a host of unanswerable questions other than “it will all be sorted out on the other side.” I am still sealed to my first wife and children but only 2 of the 4 kids speak to me. My current wife’s ex husband was excommunicated for adultery but if she were to cancel her sealing to him and he decided to come back to the church and had his blessings restored, my wife’s daughters would remain sealed to him and not sealed anymore to her. I decided to reconsider the source of the whole business with JS and the 132nd section and decided for myself that he was just trying to convince Emma that polygamy was ok and interpret it in that light.

    #231019
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Tangentially, this reminds me of the promise given to mothers who lose children that they will get the opportunity to “raise” them in heaven. I have no idea how that could even be possible based on a myriad other doctrinal issues.

    fwiw, I have no idea… (frankly, I can’t imagine anyone can logically get through some of these paradoxical conundrums). I think it’s all a part of the touchy-feely families are forever modern mormonism. Essentially, it will all be worked out in the next life exactly how we want it to or in whatever manner makes us happy now. Which I actually think is great! Despite the cynicism… 😳

    #231020
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I PERSONALLY just don’t put much merit into DC 132. Actually, I don’t put much merit in Temples or any of the D&C. I personally don’t see anything in it as “gospel”. There is some good in it – but I personally don’t regard it as the literally word of god or will of god. I think most of what we know about temples and sealings and such is symbolic and was created to help people feel better about life on this planet, and perhaps to boost their faith in Jesus. Nothing wrong with that, but I certainly don’t see anything “magical” about it. Just my opinion.

    #231021
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I think there are these fuzzy (but very important), transcendent ideas like being connected to those we love and everyone around us. That is the most true.

    When we humans try to focus in closer and make things more specific, like “families are forever,” that we stay together in family bonds after this life in some form, that still mostly works. It has lots of truth.

    When we focus closer and try to define more detail, like specific and tangled sealing questions, it really starts to break down a lot.

    The problem is that the soft-focus, broad concepts aren’t very practical in real life when we want to actually make decisions and arrange things. We have to be specific. A lot of this is alleviated by not being overly attached, IMO, to our specific circumstances being projected outward as the rule for everything else. In other words, you can’t start from the detailed level and work back up to the fuzzy broad rules. It only works from the fuzzy down to trying to make specific decisions in our lives.

    So after all this babbling and rambling, I mean this: I think Joseph Smith was expressing a permutation of the transcendent idea of connectedness. It is beautiful and enlightening in a lot of ways, but I try not to be overly attached to the minute details. That’s how I reconcile it.

    #231022
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks all, I appreciate the comments, they articulate quite well some of the thoughts I’ve had on the subject. Yeah, it’s very difficult to arrange and reconcile the ‘known’ in relation to the ‘unknown’, particularly when the ‘unknown’ is sketchy at best and irritatingly evasive. But I refuse to believe that all the good people I know that married other good people outside the temple won’t have whatever blessings or progression is available in the next life because of that. That’s just not a system I want to be a part of.

    *sigh* I’m still trying to reconcile 30 years of black-and-white church teachings with my new-fangled cynicism. It’s a process… ;)

    #231023
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Martine, if you exclude the very narrow reading of D&C 132 and use the core teachings of vicarious work as the standard – with the idea that only God knows what is appropriate in the end, then your view can be seen very, very easily as part of the “pure Mormonism” I mention now and then.

    Remember, we stress the importance of US being sealed, but we also stress the idea that ALL can be sealed – and that they and God will work it out in the end. So, maybe it’s those who insist that only those who are sealed in this life can be exalted who are heterodox, in reality – not you. :D

    #231024
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’ve been thinking about this topic quite a bit lately. I think the sealing between a man and a woman is a wonderful ordinance. But this whole business of sealing parents to children just makes no theological sense to me at all. My parents were sealed in the temple. I’ve been sealed to my wife in the temple. If the purpose of this life is to obtain exaltation, I’m not going to be hanging out in my parent’s exalted living room. The sealing to the man and the woman is what is important, not parents to children.

    I read a book called “More Wives Than One” by Kathryn Daines. She discusses polygamy in Manti, Utah. She notes that there were some sealings done in Nauvoo to children who were too young to get married. If I remember correctly, a 12-year old boy was sealed to a 10 year old girl because the Saints knew they were moving west and wouldn’t have a temple to be sealed in. However, the “couple” was not actually married–they never consummated the marriage and continued to live with their families. The 2 ended up marrying other people and never had a “real” marriage with each other. They were sealed simply so that they could receive the sealing ordinance which they knew probably wouldn’t be available as they traveled west. Frankly, it reminded me of Catholics baptizing infants simply to avoid Hell if they died right away. This sort of sealing seems odd to me. While such sealings were rare, it indicates to me that the sealing between husband and wife is of supreme important, rather than parents to children.

    I believe that this whole idea of being “born into the covenant” is a similar mindset. A young child “needs” to be sealed to someone, so until they become of age to be sealed to a spouse, they are “temporarily” sealed to a parent. The real sealing is between a man and a wife.

    Additionally, I read “Great Basin Kingdom” by Leonard Arrington that discusses “adoptive sealings.” For example, John D Lee was sealed as a son to Brigham Young. If I remember correctly, many church members wanted to be sealed to Brigham and Joseph so that they would have a greater chance at exaltation. I believe it was in the 1880’s that church leaders became uncomfortable with this practice, and disallowed such sealings. Instead, they encouraged members to seek out their ancestors and create a welding link from the fathers to the children. So, it seems to me this “families are forever” saying can be traced back to this change from the 1880’s. I think the emphasis for baptism for the dead and endowments is really where the focus should be. Spouses should be sealed to each other, but from a theological perspective, sealing children to parents doesn’t make any practical sense to me. I believe it is done merely to seal a child to a parent in case the child isn’t sealed to a spouse due to early death or some other reason like that. Posthumous sealings by proxy only seem “necessary” if a child dies too young to obtain a spouse.

    Now obviously, I’m not teaching official church doctrine here, but it is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

    #231025
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mormonheretic wrote:

    Now obviously, I’m not teaching official church doctrine here, but it is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

    😆 This makes me laugh MH. Just not the kind of thing that one hears often on this site – like ANYTHING that is written in this forum is. 😆 Very funny, even if you were not trying to be.

    PS – I am impressed with how well-read you are. Where do find time :( .

    #231026
    Anonymous
    Guest

    What MH said. :)

    #231027
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Cwald, I was in a Mormon Book Club and unemployed for a good part of last year, so I got quite a bit of reading done. However, my full-time job, a new part-time teaching job, and training to run in a race is definitely cutting into my reading time. (The running is helping me catch up on Mormon Stories on my iPod, however–giving me new ideas for posts….) :D

    #231028
    Anonymous
    Guest

    mormonheretic wrote:

    Cwald, I was…and unemployed for a good part of last year, so I got quite a bit of reading done.

    I guess sometimes we should be “grateful” that we don’t have the time to do all the reading we want. ;)

    #231029
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    Doctrine and Covenants 132:46

    And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.


    One way to look at this is that the sealings are done under the Holy Spirit of Promise (see D&C 76:53)…which I like to think as there is a promise it will also be sealed in heaven as was intended on earth if the individuals are faithful and work towards making this promise come true. But if circumstances occur that change things, I don’t think God sticks people together…they are just promised to be together if they work for it, or promised those blessings with someone else that is worthy of them.

    I agree mostly with MH, and think the kids are sealed to the parents so they are not lost…but ultimately that promise should be given to them for their spouse in the eternities…not riding the coat tails of any parents or ancestors.

    #231030
    Anonymous
    Guest

    cwald wrote:

    mormonheretic wrote:

    Cwald, I was…and unemployed for a good part of last year, so I got quite a bit of reading done.

    I guess sometimes we should be “grateful” that we don’t have the time to do all the reading we want. ;)

    I’m afraid many people have plenty of reading time these days! 😥

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