Just Excommunicated.

Sailor, in general, in cases of sexual misconduct, as long as the person is penitent and doesn’t have a history of covering up prior actions when they “confess”, Elder Ballard’s counsel should be followed – concise and general. That is the standard.

As someone who has sat in counsels that deal with what you appear to be describing, I automatically have numerous questions that came to mind while reading your introduction – but I don’t think it’s proper for me to ask them here in open forum. If you are interested in talking with me about them, please send me a private message (PM when you log-in). I’m willing to ask you privately, but I can’t address the appropriateness of the questioning method until I ask my questions. (I’ve seen cases where such questioning is justified, so I just can’t say one way or the other.)

What I will say publicly is that individual courts can be handled radically differently – but the notes from courts are not supposed to follow a person throughout their lives. Full repentance is supposed to be possible in these cases, and there should be no reason you can’t be reinstated / rebaptized at some point if you desire to have that happen with no lasting negative results. That is supposed to be the case.

SamBee – my BIL was excommunicated and he was not endowed, so it is possible. There really is some discretion at the local level based on personal circumstances. In short, there are two main categories: 1) serious antagonism of the church (BIL fit this), and 2) egregious sin that constitutes covenant-breaking (usually unrepentant sexual sin).

Sailor, I’m sure this is a hard time for you to hear this, but I promise life will get better for you!

The excommunication process is difficult — for both sides. From a therapist perspective, it is quite demoralizing and humiliating…you have a bunch of men (that mostly really don’t want to be there..) doing their job and watching you eat crow!

I understand the “court of love” process, and also see it from the historical perspective that it is an offshoot of the old church courts where the church WAS the law here in “Zion.” It has evolved since then, but much of the process remains the same wrt “justice.” And much of the process is designed to protect the church and its reputation.

I have personal feelings that hope it will continue to evolve to a more loving process, instead of creating guilt and shame to the person. In the long run, we are our own worst enemy as it relates to “sin,” and (IMO) it should stay between the parties offended, and God. The shame one experiences often makes it more difficult to heal from the issue…and to ever be comfortable and confident to associate with the many people that end up knowing all the juicy details….

But that’s just my oh so humble opinion….

Maybe it will help to try to realize they are just doing a job they have accepted. The real healing process is between you, your wife/family, and God. Focus on that and I think you’ll do fine.

Good luck!

I was a stake executive secretary many moons ago (over 10) and the notes taken at disciplinary councils were kept in a hard copy in a file. I was asked to clean out the filing system and found stuff from 10 years previously, which I just left alone. The decision of the council eventually hits your membership record where it’ll be noted that you were excommunicated, and your membership record annotated.

I don’t know what the annotation contained. However, it was necessary so if people move to a new ward, the Bishop there can make sure he doesn’t put people with say, child abuse history in Primary, for example.

Or so he knows your status and doesn’t call you to a position until repentence is finished. I know the child abuse situation doesn’t apply in your case, but I share it so you know why some sins follow the person in their membership record annoation; this is to protect the innocent in some cases.

I doubt if the hard copies travel with the membership record though.

Now, there may be other systems in place with the upgrades to MLS system recently, but this is what I know, in case it helps.

You might ask this question of the Stake President or your Bishop, and hope for a candid answer.

As a note, the biggest reason why the Catholic Church is in serious trouble all over the world right now is not “just” that so many priests appear to have been abusive to children – but that those priests were shifted around and protected by the cardinals. Iow, they were not “excommunicated” and their “membership records” were not annotated (maybe), so their situations eventually were “forgotten” (in practical terms) and they were placed in new positions where they were free to continue to abuse children.

The annotation for certain actions follows the person in their record (so that new leaders can judge more properly the actions if the person continues to do the exact same thing in a new location); the notes do not.

Thank you all for your kind and supportive responses. President Kimball in the “Miracle of Forgiveness” makes a distinction between obtaining forgiveness from God and the Church. In my transgression, I offended four people or groups of people, First, God. I broke my covenant, and transgressed the law. Second, My Wife. She was a innocent victim and I violated her trust in me and our vows to each other. Third, My Family. They have a right to expect that the parent will set a good example, and show by right living how to navigate the perils of life. Fourth, The Church. By my actions, I brought discredit upon the body of the Church and treated my membership as something of little value.

I have spent many, many weeks now enduring my own private hell as I work through my repentance with my God. I have found Him to be loving, with arms wide open, anxious and willing to forgive.

I have confessed to my wife and she is a marvelous, compassionate person. While she is deeply hurt and trust is damaged, she too is willing to make a new start and forgive my transgressions.

I have sat with each of my (all adult) children. I have expressed great sorrow for my behavior, and asked each of them to forgive. For some it is easier than others, but with the kids, I am working to demonstrate by my actions, my true repentance.

Finally, I have confessed to the Church. Through the procedure which they have established. I didn’t try to make an end run, I didn’t shrink from the most difficult meeting of my life and now I feel that perhaps I am on the road to obtaining forgiveness from the Church.

This process has been excruciating for me, and one of the many things that is troubling me now is the process. I am just not understanding the why of the process. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that I shouldn’t have been excommunicated. While I think it was a harsh decision, and uncalled for in my case, it was within the Stake President’s right and power to decide. I have faith in his inspiration, and look forward to a fresh start.

But the lurid recounting, the 2 hour cross examination the plumbing the depths of my soul seemed to be excessive to me and frankly has left me confused and just a little bitter toward the process.

I am not sure I will EVER be able to feel clean in their presence. I think whenever I seem them at the store, the car-wash, or at Church, I will have a big red scarlet “X” on my forehead.

It is only a matter of time before the whole ward will know what has happened, and probably all of the details to go along with it. And if they don’t know the details, the wagging tongues will make up events to fit the facts. I just don’t see how I can ever feel comfortable again even in my home ward. This is part of the reason, I would like to insure that the “notes” can someday be destroyed and will not follow me wherever I go for the rest of my life.

Sailor,

I don’t know your full story (nor do I want to hear it! That’s not for me), but it does sound as if you have made a genuine effort to sort out your problems. That’s got to be worth something. Think of all the people who haven’t done this, and caused more pain by not telling their wives, speaking to their children, and agonizing over it. What you have done takes guts and decency. We all fall, but all to few few people try to sort it out as you have, and I respect you for it.

If you want nastiness, try my grandmother, who told my mother about her adulterous affair with great glee. I don’t think my grandfather ever knew. I therefore have some reservations about sealing the two of them!!! You have not behaved in this way, you’ve admitted what you’ve done in a positive manner, and tried to set it right.

I disagree with some of the stuff in “the Miracle of Forgiveness” (see my post elsewhere). I think it is a greater challenge to overcome sin when you’ve encountered it, than to lead a dull and uneventful life. I had to confess some stuff recently myself, and it’s not a pleasant experience. In my case, my main crime is fornication (if it was adultery, I wasn’t aware of it at the time, and I have no contact with the other party). Because I was inactive at the time, and not in a high calling, I think my penalties have been less severe. However, it does set me thinking as to whether or not I had helped someone violate their marriage vows.

I am not sure I will EVER be able to feel clean in their presence. I think whenever I seem them at the store, the car-wash, or at Church, I will have a big red scarlet “X” on my forehead.

It is only a matter of time before the whole ward will know what has happened, and probably all of the details to go along with it. And if they don’t know the details, the wagging tongues will make up events to fit the facts. I just don’t see how I can ever feel comfortable again even in my home ward. This is part of the reason, I would like to insure that the “notes” can someday be destroyed and will not follow me wherever I go for the rest of my life.

If certain people continue to be completely judgemental towards you after all you have done, I wouldn’t consider them your friends. It might even be good to make a clean break and move somewhere else, if things get too uncomfortable.

The one good thing is, that I believe that given time, people will grow bored with talking about it, and move on to something else. They’ve got their own problems too – vicious gossip being one of them.