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I have visited this site several times in the past couple of years and have learned a great deal from those contributing here. I guess maybe its time I jump in and actually contribute now and then. So to begin I’ll give you a little background on what brought me here. I grew up in an active LDS family in the heart of Utah County. My dad served as a Bishop, my mom as Relief Society President, two sisters, a brother and myself all served missions. I enjoyed a very fun and supportive family and remain close to my parents and siblings. Growing up in Happy Valley, I never doubted a single aspect of the LDS faith as my entire worldview was formed by Mormonism.
My senior year in college saw the first (unknown at the time) crack in my testimony. I wrote a philosophy term paper on apologetic defenses to anti-Mormon arguments. The process only strengthened my testimony at the time but also introduced me to a number of LDS historical and doctrinal questions that I previously had never even considered.
I continued through undergrad, law school and additional graduate school as an active member with a strong testimony. By the time I finished my schooling, my legal training combined with my general personality lead me to always ask, “what is the rest of the story?” And yet to this point that curiosity was never applied to my religious faith. But something happened that drove me to revisit the issues I had learned about in that philosophy paper. This time I had the added information of the internet and quickly learned that the LDS story I grew up with was vastly different in almost every area than I had previously thought. I applied the same skepticism and critique to information critical of the Church as I did to LDS apologetic responses. But at a minimum, it became clear that there was so much more to the story than I ever knew.
My testimony was shaken and I went through a 5-year period of complete inactivity, disillusion, frustration and even anger. Then a few years ago my son began to ask about baptism and something pulled at my LDS roots and I decided to return to activity. But my testimony would never be the same. I could not put the Jeanie back in the bottle. I couldn’t just set aside the things I had learned. Church has become very different. At times I wonder if I really fit in. I can go through an entire 3-hour block and disagree with almost everything I hear. It can be frustrating but something nonetheless continues to keep me connected to the Church.
It feels as if an almost daily process of wondering what I truly believe and how that works as a member of the Church. At this point I will list for you the things I DO believe and the things I DO NOT. Hopefully that will give you a perspective on where I am and where my future comments come from as well:
1. I have a strong testimony of Heavenly Parents. I had a very real and strong spiritual witness to the reality of my Heavenly Mother. I know she lives and is engaged in my daily life every bit as much as my Heavenly Father and the Savior. I am saddened that the Church has chosen to minimize what I believe is perhaps the most satisfying piece of modern day revelation or knowledge.
2. I have a strong testimony of my Father in Heaven, the Savior and His Atonement. I appreciate the expanded understanding the gospel has provided me of the Atonement, its reach and magnitude.
3. I believe that the Gospel is really about love, service and charity. I believe that when we leave this life and review it with our Heavenly Parents and the Savior, they will ask us how we loved, lifted and served those in our lives and how we applied the Atonement in our own lives and in the lives of others. I also believe the review will end there – that the unique rules, regulations and requirements of Mormonism will mean nothing once we leave this earth.
The above is pretty much my testimony. It is what I hinge my spirituality and worldview upon. Now I will discuss how I feel about some of the more LDS centric aspects of my testimony – or lack thereof.
1. I DO NOT KNOW if Joseph Smith experienced the First Vision. I am bothered
by the various versions and would assume that his first and only handwritten version is likely the most accurate.
2. I appreciate the testimony the Book of Mormon provides of the Savior and His Atonement. But I am concerned by the extreme lack of direct evidence. Book of Mormon apologetics have actually lead me to DOUBT that the Book of Mormon is an historical document. I similarly DOUBT that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham accurately.
3. I REJECT the doctrine and former practice of Plural Marriage. I similarly REJECT the former policy regarding black members and the Priesthood. I believe that MUCH in the Church both now and in the past is a product of personal opinion, tradition, culture and expediency.
4. The teaching that Old Testament events up to the flood occurred in Jackson County, blood atonement, Adam-God theory, revised temple ordinances and many other aspects of LDS history and doctrine lead me to believe that the Lord has been very selective in revealing truth while leaving much to the best intentions of man.
5. The Word of Wisdom falls into this category for me. I appreciate the spirit of working toward health and fitness throughout our lives but find the Word of Wisdom itself to be a clear reflection of health codes of the time combined with personal opinion. But I strive to live its encouragement to be healthy and fit and find that daily coffee and the occasional use of alcohol assists me in doing that.
It is obvious that I struggle with much that is uniquely Mormon. And yet I love the Church and I appreciate the massive amount of good it does both for members and nonmembers alike. I often feel like a fish out of water at church but also believe the Lord accepts me right where I am and accepts my testimony right where it is. I hope this is a place that I can both contribute and continue to learn from and be strengthened by each of you!
‘Just me’ you are taking words right out of my mouth. Welcome. It really is a struggle to attend when I disagree with so much that is said. At the same time, I want to be there for my kids weddings and all the church events for my extended family. Hard to reconcile. Trying to do it a week at a time.
Welcome! I’m looking forward to getting to know you better. Just something to consider:
Quote:Now I will discuss how I feel about some of the more LDS centric aspects of my testimony
I think it’s important to recognize that the first two things you listed as the foundation of your testimony also are “LDS-centric” – especially as you described them.
One of the reasons I am willing to deal with the irritating stuff in the little picture is because I love the big picture so much – and I realize how amazingly unique and “LDS-centric” that big picture is. I believe Joseph made plenty of mistakes and was a fallible prophet, but I also believe he was given a glimpse of something that is incomprehensible – and I love the flashes of it that I get occasionally.
Welcome!! I hope you can gain a sense of community with us here! Idaho Coug wrote:My testimony was shaken and I went through a 5-year period of complete inactivity, disillusion, frustration and even anger. Then a few years ago my son began to ask about baptism and something pulled at my LDS roots and I decided to return to activity. But my testimony would never be the same. I could not put the Jeanie back in the bottle. I couldn’t just set aside the things I had learned. Church has become very different. At times I wonder if I really fit in. I can go through an entire 3-hour block and disagree with almost everything I hear. It can be frustrating but something nonetheless continues to keep me connected to the Church.
Coug,
I believe it is essential to differentiate between what people are saying and what they likely mean to say. This is a skill I encourage couples to foster in their marriages. Does he “speak her language”? “Language” proficiency, rather than fluency, is a realistic goal. Applying this same technique in your interactions with others will allow you to more fully identify with what they’re actually saying: i.e. Depending on what you already know about a person, her statement “I know this is the Lord’s only true church” could mean something like, “I experience security as a member of this church.” Or “Applying the principles of the gospel to my life blesses me and my family.” You have to take such statements in their immediate (what else is being said at the moment) and extended contexts (what you know about the person). Some would claim this type of interpretation of human experience is presumptuous or even disingenuous. I contend we do it all-day-long, every day. It is a very practical way to live out the hopeful prayer, “Forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” We want to be received with grace, given the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I sense that a good deal of what is communicated in worship settings (in and out of the Church) even those couched in soft-spoken and gentle tones is informed by fear and insecurity. But even here, although honesty requires me to internally acknowledge when something said is “totally jacked”, I can still see someone’s desperation or fear-inspired statements to be akin to “why hast thou forsaken me?”, “Lord, not my feet only but also my head”, etc.
Idaho Coug wrote:1. I DO NOT KNOW if Joseph Smith experienced the First Vision. I am bothered
by the various versions and would assume that his first and only handwritten version is likely the most accurate.
Since we can see similar difficulties in other foundational religious experience–events in Jesus’ life in the gospels, Paul’s various Damascus accounts, creation accounts in Genesis, delivery of the 10 commandments, etc., etc.–this shouldn’t surprise us. Of course, most of us initially take these as discrepancies or contradictions and follow that it is imperative we decide whether we are dealing with fraud, diversity, or what have you. These Latter-day difficulties are all the more glaring because they come to us in first-person and other primary accounts. Moses was written about centuries after he lived, Jesus’ life a generation or two later, and even the relatively small amount of information we have from Paul has one scratching his head in confusion/frustration. All religious histories are fraught with these types of difficulties, which is one reason why atheism and agnosticism can be attractive alternatives to belief. You seem to intuitively embrace belief.
Idaho Coug wrote:2. I appreciate the testimony the Book of Mormon provides of the Savior and His Atonement. But I am concerned by the extreme lack of direct evidence. Book of Mormon apologetics have actually lead me to DOUBT that the Book of Mormon is an historical document. I similarly DOUBT that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham accurately.
Or at all.
Idaho Coug wrote:3. I REJECT the doctrine and former practice of Plural Marriage. I similarly REJECT the former policy regarding black members and the Priesthood. I believe that MUCH in the Church both now and in the past is a product of personal opinion, tradition, culture and expediency.
Since this is the case for all traditions throughout history, that something is based on “personal opinion, tradition, culture and expediency” shouldn’t cause us to necessarily REJECT it.
Idaho Coug wrote:4. The teaching that Old Testament events up to the flood occurred in Jackson County, blood atonement, Adam-God theory, revised temple ordinances and many other aspects of LDS history and doctrine lead me to believe that the Lord has been very selective in revealing truth while leaving much to the best intentions of man.
I caution myself on always seeing such a clear break between these two: revealed truth from God and man’s best intentions.
Idaho Coug wrote:5. The Word of Wisdom falls into this category for me. I appreciate the spirit of working toward health and fitness throughout our lives but find the Word of Wisdom itself to be a clear reflection of health codes of the time combined with personal opinion. But I strive to live its encouragement to be healthy and fit and find that daily coffee and the occasional use of alcohol assists me in doing that.
Some in this forum have found it helpful to sometimes speak in terms of “the good” rather than “the truth” or “truth with a capital T”. It sounds like you’re saying this here, and immediately below. (This may seem like relativism, but it is far from it.)
Idaho Coug wrote:It is obvious that I struggle with much that is uniquely Mormon. And yet I love the Church and I appreciate the massive amount of good it does both for members and nonmembers alike. I often feel like a fish out of water at church but also believe the Lord accepts me right where I am and accepts my testimony right where it is. I hope this is a place that I can both contribute and continue to learn from and be strengthened by each of you!
Your honesty and vulnerability make me think we are well founded in sharing this hope. Thank you.
Nathan
Hi Idaho C, Alot of us can relate to you here. You are right that It is hard to put the genie back into the bottle. Trying to figure out where you ‘fit’ and what you believe anymore is hard. I too try to hold on to all the good I have had and found in the church, yet try to be more realistic and cautious now as well. Finding out that the church, some of its teachings, and the leaders can be so falliable, was like finding out that your parents have some serious flaws. As a child, you see your parents as so knowledgable, and capable. You think they have all the answers and take care of you so you are shocked when you find out they are just human and have some pretty big flaws. Yet, you still love your parents and all the good they have done for you. Nevertheless, you are no longer sure that you can trust everything they do and say and you are forced to decide how you will live your life with or without them.
The thing I find most difficult in the church now is that there is no real place (accept here) to ask serious questions. If you voice your doubts or ask about historical things, you are looked upon as either an apostate or trouble maker. It was not always this way when I was growing up in the church. There was a time when you were encouraged to ask questions and that a church that could not stand up to scrutiny was not built on a firm foundation. Now, it feels more like you are being reigned in and muzzled and to not look at anything outside of the standard works or to question. Many members cannot handle questioners like us because they don’t want their own faith shaken so they distance themselves from you. They do not know what to do with people like my husband who never got the answer to Moroni’s promise in the BofM or had negative experiences in the temple, or when giving priesthood blessings. They only want to hear the success stories and don’t know what to do with those who have not had success with the formula. It’s like with this new bishop we have now that told my husband that it was not possible that he did not get an answer to the promise in Moroni. To most TBM’s there is only one right answer. I have come to learn that God knows each of us so well and knows how to work with us in different ways. Being led to this forum was truly an answer to prayer for me when I was struggling to go to church each Sunday and feeling frustrated that I could not believe everything that was being taught at church.
Idaho Coug wrote:I often feel like a fish out of water at church but also believe the Lord accepts me right where I am and accepts my testimony right where it is. I hope this is a place that I can both contribute and continue to learn from and be strengthened by each of you!
First of all, welcome. Its good to have you here and contributing to the discussion!
second, I wonder if we often feel like a fish out of water at church, just like the majority of people do there. I don’t find many opportunities at church to express some of my non-traditional ideas, so that is why I like the online forums where others agree there are valid questions to ask and seek out. But perhaps we’re not quite as “alone” at church as we feel sometimes.
Idaho Coug wrote:3. I believe that the Gospel is really about love, service and charity. I believe that when we leave this life and review it with our Heavenly Parents and the Savior, they will ask us how we loved, lifted and served those in our lives and how we applied the Atonement in our own lives and in the lives of others. I also believe the review will end there – that the unique rules, regulations and requirements of Mormonism will mean nothing once we leave this earth.
Agreed! Well said, and… Welcome!
I really resonated with & felt that spiritual feeling about what you wrote here…
Idaho Coug wrote:…1. I have a strong testimony of Heavenly Parents. I had a very real and strong spiritual witness to the reality of my Heavenly Mother. I know she lives and is engaged in my daily life every bit as much as my Heavenly Father and the Savior. I am saddened that the Church has chosen to minimize what I believe is perhaps the most satisfying piece of modern day revelation or knowledge.
3. I believe that the Gospel is really about love, service and charity. …
It is obvious that I struggle with much that is uniquely Mormon. And yet I love the Church and I appreciate the massive amount of good it does both for members and nonmembers alike. I often feel like a fish out of water at church but also believe the Lord accepts me right where I am and accepts my testimony right where it is. I hope this is a place that I can both contribute and continue to learn from and be strengthened by each of you!
Welcome, ID Coug! I like your ability to see different perspectives & look forward to hearing more from you!Hi Just Me! Welcome to StayLDS. I know you from other sites. Glad to see you here. That was a beautiful introduction. I really enjoy your perspectives.
Nathan wrote:Depending on what you already know about a person, her statement “I know this is the Lord’s only true church” could mean something like, “I experience security as a member of this church.” Or “Applying the principles of the gospel to my life blesses me and my family.”
You said that so good Nathan. I’ve thought along those same lines for a while too. When I hear someone in Church expressing beautiful emotion about their experience of their religion, they often do it through statements of personal truth like “I know the Church is true.” Even though intellectually I think to myself that they don’t understand the literal language of that statement they are making, and it is not describing a method of “knowing,” I translate those statements in my head. I hear them saying “being a part of this Church makes me feel really good, and it brings great value and meaning to my life.”
That has been my gut reaction, or a way to listen to those things and have it not upset me (because of my analytical personality). I just enjoy the experience of their expressing these things. It is beautiful to me, even if on some other level the “rational” part of me might disagree with the language they are using.
Welcome Idaho Cougar! I’ll just echo the many great comments here, and thank you for taking the time to organize the thoughts that 90% of us have! I will add briefly (not to detract from “your time to shine…”) that your list resonates with me. Perhaps the only notable difference is that I view the “Heavenly parents” and the afterlife as metaphor — just that my life experiences have lead me to that paradigm (and I don’t have to wrestle with the continuous “is it true?” thinking in my jumbled grey matter!)
I look forward to your participation here!
Welcome Idaho C. I’m new here too.
I really enjoyed your intro and share alot of your thoughts.
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