Is Shrek True? (How about the Good Samaritan?)

Either that or there is a “divine” element to the human experience, and it just so happens that it occurs largely outside the religious world.

That’s how I see it. To look at a few Mormon concepts:

If the glory of God is intelligence (light and trith), and if all have the light of Christ, and if we are study it out in our minds and hearts, and if all are the children of God, and if God speaks yesterday, today and forever, etc. – them, yeah, I believe much of the divine work happens as a result of this world being populated by those who are inherently divine.

“God is in us” and “the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost” have very significant meaning in that context. If we are the embodiment of God’s work and glory and grace, I have no problem believing we can “feel the spirit” in any type of situation.

Stimulating thoughts–right on!

As I see it, spiritual experiences are almost universally subjective. Unfortunately, “subjective” is most often used pejoratively, not unlike “relative” and “relativism”. What is going on inside me is the screen through which I interpret my experiences. Last week my wife had two family members die unexpectedly (the circumstances of their deaths were unrelated) and a day later she miscarried in her second trimester. She took our daughter with her to visit her family in the States, and I have been Mr. Mom with our two boys. You can imagine how hectic my week has been. This is the mindset I brought with me today that filtered the story of Shrek. Shrek is true for me in ways my sons can’t appreciate. Shrek will never belong to my personal cannon–and have the staying power of Wordsworth, Thoreau, or Star Wars–but it did the trick this afternoon when I needed it.

I try to avoid using the phrase “feeling the Spirit” to protect against reducing the spiritual to mere emotion. I opt for “experiencing” or “encountering” the Spirit, which is more faithful to the Mormon, mystical tradition.

“Experiencing the spirit” can be a powerful thing for most people. It can bring confirmation of beliefs or at a minimum bring guidance to a troubled soul. It can uplift and and inspire individuals and groups to attain a higher understanding of themselves and others. It can do many good things. But there can also be a down side. Listening exclusively to the “spirit” as some are want to do can lead you to make poor decisions and allow you to invest time and energy in projects oractivities that are of little value in the long run. I speak of this because I myself was always trying desperately to follow or experience the spirit. I to felt it in many venues and places even at church at times. The paradox for me can when the spirit confirmed to me something that later proved to be false. It knocked me down and destroyed my faith for some time. It made me question everything. Granted I am totally willing to accect that I misinterpreted, but then that begs the question why is the spirt so cryptic that is would allow yo to be guided into dangerous paths.

As for now I still seek after the spirit but I can not allow it to override my intelligence or ability to reason. It is more of an uplifting dare I say emotion than an actual guidepost. I hope to someday find more truth from the spirit. Pehaps it is something in me that stops me. Perhaps to me the spirit is my ability to reason and learn on my own. I do not know for sure. I am seeking

As for now I still seek after the spirit but I can not allow it to override my intelligence or ability to reason. It is more of an uplifting dare I say emotion than an actual guidepost. I hope to someday find more truth from the spirit. Pehaps it is something in me that stops me. Perhaps to me the spirit is my ability to reason and learn on my own. I do not know for sure. I am seeking

Cadence,

I was about 30 when I was first confronted with strong evidence against the historicity of the Book of Mormon; it rocked me, but not as badly as it has some. By that time, I had already wrestled for several years with similar evidence regarding the popularly accepted biblical history. Because of my appreciation for historical critical methods of interpreting scripture I do not look at scripture the same way as I once did, but it’s as precious to me as ever. When I have spiritual experiences while studying or preaching/teaching from scripture, they do not have to point to a particular, concrete reality to inform my values and fulfillment in life. I find instructive the example of Alma and Amulek while they stood bound at the edge of a fiery pit in Amonihah. Scriptures and believers were being thrown into the pit. Amulek suggested they use the power of God to stop the injustice, but Alma said the Spirit constrained him; the wickedness was necessary in order for judgment to follow. (Forget the more intricate problems here.) Both seemed to be “feeling” the Spirit, but one was more fluent or receptive to its guidance. Like countless others, I have had too many powerful experiences studying and applying the Book fo Mormon to toss it for lack of evidence of its external claims. I know how weak this looks to outsiders–but I just can’t; it’s too good. That being said, I’ve made sense of the paradox or conundrum by refusing to throw the baby out with the bath water. And so far, it’s working better than I imagined. (The process was anything but linear, and it has taken about ten years. I feel I should disclose or contextualize my experience.)

Nathan

…”Dad, this is the best day ever.”… For me, the truth couldn’t be more profound that we are created to be in relationship with one another. Of course, tonight was marked by high ideals and the greatest of expectations. As the days pass, marital discord, substance abuse, depression and other difficulties will bring these folks to my office. But for tonight, the hope of better times is very much alive.

Very nice. Great story. If this is not “experiencing the spirit” then I don’t what would be. More and more I seem have these type of “moments” away from church – doing things that most church members would say is “crazy talk” – like watching the movie Shrek. I started to have less and less “spiritual experiences” at church because of my poor attitude towards the institution. I kind of “turned off” the spiritual LDS hose from the source, and I went elsewhere to find it – other people, other places.

I remember the first time I “felt the spirit” while visiting a crack house in Brooklyn. It shook my faith. How is that possible? Remember the ol’ sunday school lesson that teaches one “cannot feel the spirit in a bar, or one will lose the spirit if they drink a cup of tea, or violate the “commandments” and that one must obey all the commandments if you want the holy ghost to be your constant companion etc etc. That’s hogwash. I understand why we “teach” it that way, but… I’ve come to understand and experience “God” more on a DAILY basis, during the small and mundane task of life, just the small pleasures of life, now that I have stepped back from the church, and just finally admitted to myself that “it” doesn’t work for me the way I was told to live it. I finally gave myself permission to not be this perfect, devout, unquestioning Mormon – and it has done wonders for my “spirituality.” I’m now able to “experience” the spirit more, and more powerfully, now that I no longer rely on the adage that one must “be perfect” or “striving to be perfect” to be worthy of the spirit. I think that realization opens one up to some serious spiritual enlightenment – and it might just come while listen to REO Speedwagon or reading a good Katherine Kurtz fantasy novel.

I love this quote: “Perfection didn’t suit me. I’m done with it.”

This post resonates with me — what both Nathan and Cwald said. I said this quite a while ago on this forum, but I consider spiritual experiences to be a great cocktail mixture of dopamine, seratonin…and external events that allow one to feel loved, accepted, or empathic towards others that have courageous bonding experiences. (basically…)

Rix, I’m not prepared to speak with your degree of confidence when deconstructing what we call a spiritual experience–but I like hearing you say it; your candor is refreshing. My analysis of my own spiritual experiences leads me to think spiritual experiences are just that: spiritual. They may involve the neuro-chemical and subjective, personal history, value system, and need for reassurance, etc. but these experiences, although similar in some qualities, are unique when compared to others: roller coaster rides, sexual intimacy, and close calls with death. That being said, I agree with you that they are largely subjective. I believe charismatic people learn how to harness or manipulate the experience for themselves and others. And this is only one reason why we should be cautious of this category of human experience.

Now, I don’t deny that that “cocktail” may be influenced by a creative, organizing energy one might call “God,” or “Spirit,” but I am quite certain that no one religion has a corner on the spirituality market. Frankly, I think many events are deemed spiritual experiences by the subject having expectations that since certain things happened in a way that would be unlikely without divine intervention…then the mind creates a story about the event that is quite dramatic…and it gives a person great hope and purpose in their life, so it becomes labeled “spiritual.” And it may be.

True: No one religion has a corner on the spirituality market. But I have something to share that has been helpful when analyzing life. In my graduate studies (The Epistemology of Religious Experience; The Psychology of Religion and Conversion; Pastoral Ministry: Mourning Death, etc.) I was introduced to the concept that different categories of experience, even if they share the same technical term, are often different, and sometimes even fundamentally so. Prayer is a pretty basic concept, but Muslims, Catholics, and Latter-day Saints approach this activity with different sets of understanding and expectations. These, in turn, inform their experiences during and about prayer. I could list other examples, but I’m sure the notion is not new to you. As a former student and professor of world religions, I know better than to speak of unique beliefs and practices–there are none. But when combined with particular cultures and individuals, here we can speak of something being practically unique. Latter-day Saints’ concept and pursuit of “the Spirit” is practically unique. Sure, it is influenced by 19th and early 20th Century American Protestantism, but it also stands apart. The LDS notion of the Spirit–feeling the Spirit, etc–is mystical in nature and has a great deal in common with Islam’s Sufis, Judaism’s followers of Kabbalah, and many early Christian monastics. What makes it unique is the universal application. This experience is not strictly Gnostic, it is not reserved for only the elite or initiated. “The Spirit of Christ is given to every man” (Moroni 7:16). Mormons actually believe this.

In his American Religion, renowned cultural and literary critic, Harold Bloom, trips all over himself praising Joseph Smith as a religious genius. He makes no apologies for his read that Joseph tapped into inspiration from early Jewish Gnostic greats (without any realistic, empirical source for him to have done so–other than that it happens to be his spirituality of choice). My point? Most, and perhaps nearly all, adherents of the world’s various religions throughout history have had spiritual experiences, but I have not encountered any tradition whose adherents pursue and cultivate that experience with the same intensity as the Latter-day Saints. To be clear, virture, revelation, relationship with God are other ways these adherents pursue good, but it is not the spiritual experience we speak of. In the words of Ezra Taft Benson, “If there is one message I have repeated to my brethren of the Twelve, it is that it’s the Spirit that counts. It is the Spirit that matters. I do not know how often I have said this, but I never tire of saying it—it is the Spirit that matters most” (mission presidents’ seminar, 3 Apr. 1985). To be even clearer, even if I am right about this marked prioritization Latter-day Saints place on the spiritual experience, I am in no way implying a superiority or infallibility. Not at all. I want to believe that if we were more “intune” with the Spirit we could have avoided some of our corporate sins or blemishes–but who knows? Like you said, the encounter is good, and that can be enough–at least for me.

I know many here have had powerful experiences, and have labeled them spiritual. I choose not to judge the events of others. I’ve had many myself…and have spent much time and energy analyzing what they were…and to this day I say “I don’t know.” But I am just fine with it, and I continue doing things that make me “feel good,” and find that satisfying simply to have the experience without needing to explain it.

But that’s just me…..

Thank you for taking the time and energy . . .

Nathan

It really is interesting that literally the exact same feeling that accompanies a heart felt prayer or religious talk also accompanies a song, book, movie, view of nature, or any number of things in our life that can be considered quite seperate from our LDS rituals. And even more interesting at least for me to note is that I have experienced what I consider to be the spirit more through expriences removed from the LDS Church than those experinces within it.

That is my experience as well. Amen brother, Amen.