Faith through Obedience

When faith is weak, so is obedience. It’s as if one doesn’t believe that obedience will amount to anything, so it creates a downward spiral. I think each person has their bottom threshold, however — at least in the short-term, beyond which they refuse to fall. I have weak obedience right now, but I am temple-recommend worthy.

I have found that sometimes, being obedient puts you in situations which challenges your faith. So, sometimes, being obedient can actually precipitate a faith crisis!!!

Yes, exactly…especially when one believes what is told over the pulpit so often that obedience ensures protection, and then it seems like it rains on the just and the unjust alike, and it makes one wonder what all the obedience was for anyway, right?

I guess something I’m trying to learn is that obedience needs to be done for faith in the Lord, not faith in the outcome of situations.

I have run into situations where in being hyper-committed and obedient, it creates situations that challenge my faith….like when I acted on spiritual manifestations to adopt a child, and it blew up in my face in the most testimony-wrenching way.

Think about this spin on commitment or obedience:

“Commitment takes commitment”

Consider a play on the word “takes” — take can mean “requires” or it can mean “removes from”, or “saps”. My experiences in the last couple years have done that.

I think your advice to obey for God and not for good outcomes is worthwhile, but I think we’ve established many times it can be REALLY hard to determine what is actually emanating from God and what is an erroneous interpretation or simply one man’s opinion.

FWIW, this thread reminds me of the admonition that “obedience is the first law of heaven”. I rather think that love, of God and our fellow man, is the “first law of heaven”, from which obedience naturally follows, but whatever. Apparently the first (or at least one of the first) references to obedience being the “first law of heaven” comes from Joseph F. at a general conference in 1873, and the context was something about women being obedient to their husbands. And of course in that case, the question of what to be obedient to was an easy one to answer.

But has not a woman the same volition that the man has? Can she not follow or disobey the man as he can follow or disobey Christ? Certainly she can, she is responsible for her acts, and must answer for them. She is endowed with intelligence and judgment, and will stand upon her own merits as much so as the man. That is why the brethren, during this Conference, have been teaching the sisters that they must refrain from the fashions of Babylon. They must use their own judgment and agency as to whether they will obey this counsel or not. If they will not obey it, they will be responsible as much as the men are responsible for their acts. The man is responsible for the woman only so far as she is influenced by, or is obedient to, his counsels. Christ is responsible for the man so far as the man walks in obedience to the laws and commandments he has given, but no further, and so far will his atoning blood redeem and cleanse from sin; so far as they obey them will the principles of eternal life revealed in the Gospel have effect upon the souls of men, so also with women. So sisters, do not flatter yourselves that you have nothing to answer for so long as you may have a good husband. You must be obedient. Obedience is the first law of heaven. Without it the elements could not be controlled. Without it neither the earth nor those who dwell upon it could be controlled. The angels in heaven would not be controlled without it, and in fact without obedience there could be no union or order, and chaos and confusion would prevail. When we are obedient we may be guided to the accomplishment of all that is required of us by our heavenly Father, for it is on this principle that the designs and purposes of God are accomplished. The elements are obedient to his word. He said “Let there be light and there was light.” He commanded the land and the waters to be divided, and it was so. When Christ commanded the storm to be still, and the sea to be calm the elements were obedient to him. The earth, and all the worlds which God has made are obedient to the laws of their creation, for this reason there are peace, harmony, union, increase, power, glory and dominion, which could not exist without obedience. For the lack of obedience the whole world to-day lies in sin, for except, the little existing among this people, obedience can not be found on the face of the earth. Go to the religions of the day, do you find obedience manifested by the people? No, but you find man everywhere self-willed and untractable, therefore confusion and anarchy reign. It is said in the Scriptures that all things are possible with God; but he only works in accordance with the principles by which he himself is governed; and hence he can not convince nations of the truth against their will.

Journal of Discourses, Volume 16; Joseph F. Smith, October 7, 1873

This is good discussion. In doug’s quote there is the statement:

Without it the elements could not be controlled.

Does that mean God is limited and not all powerful?

It just doesn’t ring all right with me the way it was put forward as Obedience is the 1st Law.

I much prefer that Love is the first law, and out of love comes obedience. When I feel God’s love, and have faith my life will be better by following Christ and including Him in my life…I want to obey and have a change of heart to be submissive and humble and obedient.

I don’t think my line of thinking ranks Obedience first among all that, but there is still a place for it in developing my faith.

Faith, as we know, is the 1st principle of the gospel. Faith moves us to action, physically and mentally.

The Gospel Principles manual states:

“To have faith in Jesus Christ means to have such trust in him that we obey whatever he commands. There is no faith where there is no obedience.”[emphasis added]

If that is true, I would suggest that faith without obedience is really just belief. We believe it, even if we don’t act upon it. When we act on it and obey, it is faith.In fact, I think one can have faith in an imperfect state when we also have unbelief.”…help thou mine unbelief” (said with faith when pleading for help).

…While you go through periods of doubt or frustrations, do you still find faith is necessary in your character-building efforts? Can you cling to faith, while also pleading, “Help thou my unbelief”? Is obedience necessary to build and sustain faith? How does faith move you?

I agree that faith sometimes means more than belief such as having the confidence to act based on what we think is right or what we expect to give good results. However, I don’t really like the amount of emphasis the Church puts on obedience. The problem is that if you start to feel like it is simply obedience to men and false traditions rather than God then maybe the more faithful thing to do in that case would actually be to disregard some of this and focus on things that seem more important to you. Faith is a personal thing so it doesn’t really make sense to me to try to insist that everyone should have faith in the same exact things. Personally, I think that trying to tie faith to obedience will lead to people with no faith whatsoever in way too many cases when they start to ask why exactly they need to jump through all these hoops and the only apparent answer is because the Church said so.

What if one believes in a God that will save all his children? Which standards should be obeyed? How much obedience would it take before this “belief” becomes faith?

[P.S. I like Orson’s statement that if you can’t tell what comes from God and what is all made up, then fall back on charity. I think that’s a good strategy. That way no one gets hurt and you are still acting in accordance with divine principles….nice job on that one Orson!

Amen! God loves me and He is guiding me to lift the burdens of his brothers and sisters. Love wins!