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The sense I get from this discussion forum, and the resources provided on doctrine, and staying in the Church is as follows. 1. There really is a narrow definition of what true doctrine is — it’s ultimately put to the Church membership for sustaining after going through approvals from the higher ups. This limits the doctrine to mostly the items found in the Standard Works.
Even the Proclamation to the World isn’t doctrine, so to speak, nor is the General Handbook of Instructions. Therefore, even deeply held cultural values that permeate our religion (such as things mentioned by Boyd K. Packer’s “unwritten order of things” talk), are not truly commandments or doctrine, simply, opinion or suggestions from men.
2. The suggestions of Church leaders are worth considering, however, as they are presumably good men who have been selected after careful thought and consideration and in many cases, inspiration. My personal opinion is that we don’t automatically ignore it, or reject it, we consider it carefully given all information available to us.
3. Each person has to run all this information through their own mental set, and rely on knowledge, prayer, and their unique circumstances to arrive at ultimately how this truth is to be interpreted for them.
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So, now I have another kicker. My patriarchal blessing says:
“I bless you that you will always be able to accept counsel an direction from those who are over you in the church. These men have been called for a special purpose to help those who are under their jurisdiction in the church. As you accept counsel and direction from them you will find that they be able to lead you the way that you should go….”
To what extent do you trust priesthood leaders in the fashion described in the patriarchal blessing I received above? And to what extent would you even trust a Patriarch’s blessing as even being inspired? The statement above seems pretty unequivocal in my case, that I need to accept direction from those who are in the church. And I believe my own interpretation of certain commandments would probably NOT garner much favor with the priesthood leaders above me — they would, due to their position, err on the side of SMA’s for sheer precedent-setting reasons.
Personally, I think this is a naive statement above — the one about going to priesthood leaders and to always accept their direction and counsel. Based on my experience in the Chuch, I know that Bishops, for example, are WAY over their heads on many of the issues that cross their desk. Child abuse, marriage problems, how to help people deal with chronic problems in their families etcetera. They may well even give bad advice.
I’m curious — to what extent do you trust priesthood leaders in the fashion described in the patriarchal blessing I received above? And to what extent would you even trust a Patriarch’s blessing as even being inspired?
I have little time right now, but I will say this as a beginning:
Quote:
I think you are reading into that passage something that isn’t the words themselves when parsed.If I have more time later, maybe I will parse it for you to show you what I mean – but I think you are reading more into it than you need to take from it.
Old-Timer wrote:I have little time right now, but I will say this as a beginning:
Quote:
I think you are reading into that passage something that isn’t the words themselves when parsed.If I have more time later, maybe I will parse it for you to show you what I mean – but I think you are reading more into it than you need to take from it.
I’ve seen you use the term “parse” a few times Ray. For me, to parse means to join text together. I’m not sure what you mean by that term in the context of a discussion forum — perhaps you could comment on that too.
I don’t know if PBs are “inspired” in the sense you indicate. I don’t know if they come directly from god. Maybe, but I doubt it. IMO, and please don’t call me Satan for saying this, PBs are VERY similar to horoscopes. 😈 What I mean by that, is one could take a a random PB and it would seem to be personal and accurate, but it could and probably DOES apply to 80% of the people on this planet. It doesn’t mean they lack value, for the most part the ones I”ve read are full of great wisdom and advice and counsel — but they just as easily could have been talking to me instead of the person getting the blessing. I think that is the way they are suppose to work. ????I used to think my PB was unique and personally directed JUST TO ME, but…I don’t think that way any longer.
fwiw – I think it’s OKAY to listen to your priesthood leaders and glean their wisdom. It doesn’t mean you have to take EVERY word they say as absolute truth, and OBEY every word they say when THE SPIRIT tells you otherwise. They don’t know you as well as you and the spirit know you. I mean, think about it, what is the overall message our PL have been given recently: family, stay out debt, family, treat your body correctly, seek wisdom and pray, avoid porn, be loyal to your spouse, family, get an education, treat other who are different with respect, family, be chaste, obey the law of the land, be kind, be patient, have charity, family, avoid contention…nothing wrong with any of that counsel. I think it is when local leaders start throwing their own opinions into the mix that one needs to remind oneself of the importance of basing his/her decisions and belief on LOGIC, REASON and SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE .
PS – I love horoscopes.
👿 SD, two of the definitions of “parse” are: Quote:1. To break (a sentence) down into its component parts of speech with an explanation of the form, function, and syntactical relationship of each part
Quote:2. To examine closely or subject to detailed analysis, especially by breaking up into components; to make sense of; comprehend
When dealing with the written word, the most basic form of parsing is to analyze the words used to show their form, function and relationship in that particular usage. The purpose is to find what each word, phrase and sentence means in and of itself – apart from subjective interpretation. Obviously, in some cases the choice of words makes multiple meanings both possible and plausible – but parsing can eliminate many misinterpretations and allow the parser to be more precise in how s/he understands something.
For example, in your original post you quote the following from your PB:
Quote:accept counsel and direction
Then you provide the following interpretations:
Quote:1. going to priesthood leaders and to always accept their direction and counsel
2. They may well even give bad advice.
Parsing the original statement yields at least three things in relation to your interpretations:
Quote:1. The PB doesn’t mention “going to priesthood leaders” at all – at least not in the passage you quoted. It only addresses when those leaders give direction and counsel to you.
2. It doesn’t say you “always” have to accept every instance of their direction and counsel. It says you always will be able to accept those things. Iow, it isn’t tied to specific instances; rather, it describes an attitude that always will be present. Having that attitude doesn’t necessitate accepting everything they say.
3. “Advice” is not mentioned at all – only direction and counsel. They are different things.
A related observation is that the quoted passage says nothing about demands or directives or commands or orders or any other form of strict injunction. It speaks only of direction and counsel – things that are offered without inherent requirement to “obey”. In fact, the passage doesn’t even tell you that you always must follow the direction and counsel – only that you always will be able to accept it. Accepting direction and counsel is very different (when parsed for actual meaning) than following direction and counsel.
As a personal example, I accept direction and counsel from my Priesthood leaders as an organizational matter of course. I never refuse to receive it. Never. They are my organizational leaders. I don’t always go to them for direction or counsel, but when I do (and when they give it without my asking), I accept it as being important – since it comes from my leaders. Always.
However, once I accept it, I don’t always internalize it and follow it. That step is up to me to take according to the dictates of my own conscience – since I believe that Article of Faith really does apply to ALL (wo)men.
I trust my priesthood leaders to the extent of their experience. I would take their council with as much interest as I would a friends. Concerning PB I completely agree with the comparison to horoscopes. When DH got his (I think he was only 
the patriarch told him that at first he had a hard time getting he hang of it but over the years he was able to get better at it. The patriarch learns how to get to know you in a very short time by asking the right questions and reading body language. In your case the council given is something that is supported by church leaders so it is a very safe thing to say and good council for any active LDS wishing to be righteous.Quote:A related observation is that the quoted passage says nothing about demands or directives or commands or orders or any other form of strict injunction. It speaks only of direction and counsel – things that are offered without inherent requirement to “obey”. In fact, the passage doesn’t even tell you that you always must follow the direction and counsel – only that you always will be able to accept it. Accepting direction and counsel is very different (when parsed for actual meaning) than following direction and counsel.
I see your meaning here. I realize that when I was a young single adult that the definition of
accept as “listen and obey, always” was good enough. However, in the last 10 years I’ve sat in the chair of these priesthood leaders myself, and realize that too often, I was over my head. After giving advice at one time, I had the “advicee” ask me ‘Have you ever experienced [insert life experience here] before?”. When I said “No”, he proceeded to educate me about what it’s like to be in his situation. And as a result, I saw that my advice wasn’t practical. I realized that as an intelligent committed person, I was no different than many other leaders I currently interacted with, and that their advice may well be equally as impractical given their lack of experience with my own mental set, life experiences, etcetera. And as a result, I no longer see priesthood leadership advice as the ultimate oracle of knowledge; as one pans for gold, the advice of priesthood leadership becomes only one piece of matter in the gold pan — all that counsel and information, from all sources, needs to be run through one’s own gold pan, and in the end, what is left are some golden nuggets.
Where my analogy falls short is that you may well end up with new and more valuable material in the pan due to the interaction of the material you originally put into it in the first place.
FWIW I was thinking the exact same thing that Ray articulated about the difference between “accepting” and “following.” Always listen and consider, always make your owndecision with the help of the spirit. Growing up in the church I was always taught that you need to get your own personal spiritual confirmation that what the prophet (leaders) taught was actually from God. I was told that when each new prophet was sustained in the church you should pray about that person to see if he is truly God’s prophet. I was never told to accept anything blindly. To investigate and research for yourself was encouraged because if something could not stand up to scrutiny it had a weak foundation. This kind of atmosphere in the church actually helped me develop a strong testimony. “By the power of the Holy Ghost, ye shall know the truth of all things.” So when Jesus asked Peter who he was and Peter shot forth with the answer, it was not flesh or blood ( or human reasoning) but the Holy Ghost, that made Peter feel so self confident. I don’t feel that questioning type of spirit in the church anymore. My Danish friend who joined the church 5 years ago, had a spiritual experience that made him decide to join the church. As he learned more about the church, and church history, he began to have some serious questions. There was a temple worker in his ward and he began asking her some of his questions. She immeadiately, reacted with, “Question? No,no, we NEVER question? That really upset my friend who I had helped bring to the church because that sounded so cult like to him. So, speaking about trusting church leaders, has the attitude of questioning changed from church leaders in the last decade? btw, I was set apart by Boyd K. Packer for my mission. One of the things he said to me in that setting apart was to ALWAYS obey the Priesthood, no matter what. I remember feeling so uncomfortable when he said that and actually throughout the setting apart. Interestingly enough, there was a time I remembered that admonition with a zone leader who was practicing ‘unrighteous dominion’ over me. I was on a sisters split, where two elders went tracting with one sister (that was allowed then). This zone leader always choose me to go on the split with him. One evening he decided he did not want to do anymore tracting or climbing of those high stairs in those tall Vienna apartments. He told the other elder and I that he wanted us to go with him to watch this soccer game across the street instead. I spoke up and said, “But aren’t we supposed to be tracting?” In a loud voice he yelled at me and said, “I have the Priesthood and you must obey me.” It scared the heck out of me. That is when I recalled the admonision of BKP. So, I went along with it and when I got home, report him to the Mission Leader. I really believe that if I had not gone along with this DL, something bad could have happened.
bridget_night wrote:btw, I was set apart by Boyd K. Packer for my mission. One of the things he said to me in that setting apart was to ALWAYS obey the Priesthood, no matter what…
Wow, what an awful story. I wish that it was an isolated incident, but we all know that this kind of thing happens WAY too much — in every organized religion.
Amen, cwald – and I have been fascinated by Elder Packer’s gradual mellowing in this regard, especially recently. cwald wrote:I don’t know if PBs are “inspired” in the sense you indicate. I don’t know if they come directly from god. Maybe, but I doubt it. IMO, and please don’t call me Satan for saying this, PBs are VERY similar to
horoscopes. 😈 What I mean by that, is one could take a a random PB and it would seem to be personal and accurate, but it could and probably DOES apply to 80% of the people on this planet. It doesn’t mean they lack value, for the most part the ones I”ve read are full of great wisdom and advice and counsel — but they just as easily could have been talking to me instead of the person getting the blessing. I think that is the way they are suppose to work. ????
I like that analogy. If you really think about it most PB’s are vague and nondescript. They may throw out some general advice that could apply to anyone. Even my PB says something similar on how I am to obey the leaders.
I also only trust priesthood leaders to the extent of their experience. How would say an accountant be able to help me with a life trauma. When my wife was very sick and her outcome was in doubt the bishop came over and tried to give advice. After he left I realized how he was totally out of his realm and had little idea what we were really going through. Essentially his advice was useless, but it made him feel good I am sure so maybe it did have some value
Quote:I realized how he was totally out of his realm and had little idea what we were really going through.
Why was this, do you think?
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I realized how he was totally out of his realm and had little idea what we were really going through.
Why was this, do you think?
because he is a good man asked to do something he has no experince or training for. He wanted to help but his words were more hurtful than helpful. For some reason leaders seem to want to solve all problems with an anecdotal story. I was looking to my spiritual leader for some real insight that I was always told he had but he had nothing to offer. I in no way blame him. He was just as I said out of his realm of experience
Quote:(He) had little idea what we were really going through.
Should he have understood better? (I have no idea, which is why I ask.)
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