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Lately I can not shake the question from my mind of why? What I mean is why does there seem for me to be so many loose ends, contradictions and open issues in the LDS church if it really administers the truth. - The origin of the Book of Abraham
The origin of the Book Of Mormon
Do modern day prophets receive real revelation
What is a real tithe
Where is the church spending its money
Are callings really coming from God
Home teaching a valuable program?
Obtaining spiritual confirmation of the truth of the church
Is the spirit reliable
The word of wisdom in general
The purpose of the temple
These are just some of the topics that get discussed here and other places. Everyone is always asking questions about these things, which in itself is a good thing but why do we need to ask the question. If something is so true such as the Book of Mormon should it not be so self evident that there is little room for question. Why are these issues so hard to verify? Does not having a reliable absolute answer for many issues minimize its authenticity. It is not like we are dealing with some minor issues here that have no lasting effect on our lives. Theoretically we are dealing with things that have consequences from here to eternity. Things that could determine what you are, not only in this life but in heaven. So I ask myself why do we question so many things that are suppose to be central to our salvation. Perhaps we should not question and “follow the leaders” no matter what. Not sure that works well for most of us here is the problem.
I don’t think it’s strange that growing causes growing pains. The old saying, “No pain; no gain,” really is true. If you look at it from one angle, the War In Heaven and Garden of Eden narratives draw two distinct alternatives: struggle vs. ease. I see the verse that says, “There must needs be opposition in all things,” as much more literal and comprehensive than many people – that when it says “all things”, it means ALL things.
So, I would say that truths are not self-evident simply because they aren’t – and they can’t be if we are here to grow and become on an individual basis.
Hi Cadence, You ask such good questions. I have thought about that too. Especially, in regards to prayer and having a Heavenly Father. I had such a wonderful relationship with my dad and could talk to him about anything. If I called him on the phone, he would listen patiently and try to answer all my questions. He was so empathetic and kind. I have felt that from God too, but it seems like I have to be desperate before He answers me. If we are to have a personal relationship with God, why is it so hard have that back and forth communication like I had with my dad? I know the scriptures talk about searching, and seeking and finding. I understand what Ray is saying about growing through using our muscles which is painful. I also like his quote about “now we see through a glass darkly.” Living by trial and error, falling down, getting up, all seem to be a necessary part of this earth life. We live by faith, not by knowing for sure. The only good answer I got for that one is ‘in not knowing for sure, God can see what is in our heart and the type of person we want to be.” Maybe, it’s like the parents who allowed their daughter to go around the world on a boat and have her own experiences. Yet, they kept in touch. We are told that God did not leave us alone; that he gave us his word, through the Bible etc. But, then you have to figure out if that is His word or the right map to follow. The Spirit is supposed to guide us, but even that is confusing when so many people are getting different ‘answers’ to the same question. “By their fruits, ye shall know’, is the best answer I have found so far. To me, living a Christlike life does bear good fruit. Living some of the lds gospel teachings has not always born good fruit for me.
Cadence wrote:If something is so true such as the Book of Mormon should it not be so self evident that there is little room for question. Why are these issues so hard to verify?
Because God is merciful.
If God makes these issues unclear, then he’s spared of having to levy the strict punishments that would fall upon all of us for falling short given the accoutantability that comes with perfect knowledge. That’s why he doesn’t appear to everyone — only the strongest and purist, and those capable of living up to the standards that come with perfect knowledge actually get to see Him. It’s also why Jesus spoke in parables rather than the straight truth — to lessen accountability to the weak.
I gave an example elsewhere. As a teacher, I have students who are really weak. I made up an exam question and all the weak students got it wrong. My wording was a unclear, I found out later. Only the absolute brightest students were able to read it, and then deduce what I meant and then answer it properly. So out of fairness, I gave the weak students the points for the question and explained it all as a class to them later on so they got the benefit of the knowledge. This actually helped the weak students pass the course, was just, but was also merciful at the same time.
I think the next life, after death will be a lot easier to accept the gospel because at least we’ll KNOW about the immortality of our spirit. We’ll see there IS a spirit world, spirit paradise, missionary force organized, and that our spirit does separate from our body. The evidence will be greater and it will be easier to believe. Weaker people will be able to accept it more readily then, with little or no accountability for rejecting it in this life when it just wasn’t clear. God will save more souls that way — compared to dishing out the knowledge for free to everyone’s condemnation in this life.
Now, those who believed in spite of the fuzziness of truth in this life will also have had the opportunity to distinguish themselves, and will be blessed. They will also respect this earthly existence as challenging and salvation as something they respect. If it was too easy, no one would respect it.
That’s my take on it. I’ve thought the same things many times as you Cadence. Frustrating, isn’t it? To want to know the truth, to be willing to follow it, but finding it’s fraught with unreliability, invalidity, sentimentality, diversity of opinion, you name it.
Cadence wrote:Lately I can not shake the question from my mind of why? What I mean is why does there seem for me to be so many loose ends, contradictions and open issues in the LDS church if it really administers the truth.
Because … you need to accept there is no spoon.
[img]http://courses.ece.ubc.ca/373/library/images/photo_movieMatrix-quoteSpoon.jpg [/img] And by that, I mean that the Church does not really “administer the truth” the way you are wanting to expect it. This is my round about way of saying the Church is not true, at least not in the way you are thinking, which unfortunately is the way you, me and most other members of the Church were brought up to think of it as true. I try not to say “The Church is not true” because most people will misunderstand the nuance and meaning of my view on that. But … the Church is not true, not like that [disclaimer: this is my personal opinion. I totally accept that I might be wrong, and fully support others who believe the Church is in fact true as it claims].
The origin of the Book of Abraham – It came through JS in some form or another. We know that.
The origin of the Book Of Mormon – It came through JS in some form or another. We know that.
Do modern day prophets receive real revelation – Yes. But I don’t personally think there’s is any better than mine, most of the time. They are worth listening to though, for sure.
What is a real tithe – one that YOU give for the “real” reasons, and that YOU and God have worked out together.
Where is the church spending its money – I doubt we will know
Are callings really coming from God – Yes, but in a round-about sort of fuzzy way. I think the decisions are more perspiration than inspiration. That’s OK, perhaps God works that way too.
Home teaching a valuable program? – As valuable as we decide to make it, or not at all. I can be good.
Obtaining spiritual confirmation of the truth of the church – Lots of people get it. What does it mean?
😈 Is the spirit reliable – it is 100% reliable for its purpose, but a lot of people use it expecting it to be a hammer when it is really a paint brush
The word of wisdom in general – mostly wise words, taken way too far out of context and purpose in my personal opinion, but that’s just me.
The purpose of the temple – any purpose you want it to serve. I am not a literal believer, but the symbolism and metaphors … wow. Taken from the greatest thinkers of all ages IMO.
Cadence wrote:Lately I can not shake the question from my mind of why? What I mean is why does there seem for me to be so many loose ends, contradictions and open issues in the LDS church if it really administers the truth…These are just some of the topics that get discussed here and other places…ask myself why do we question so many things that are suppose to be central to our salvation. Perhaps we should not question and “follow the leaders” no matter what.
To some extent it all depends on whose story you believe. The Church has its official story that TBMs tend to accept at face value but others have a harder time believing all this. In many cases the same story can be interpreted many different ways depending on individual opinions and assumptions.
Brian Johnston wrote:
And by that, I mean that the Church does not really “administer the truth” the way you are wanting to expect it. This is my round about way of saying the Church is not true, at least not in the way you are thinking, which unfortunately is the way you, me and most other members of the Church were brought up to think of it as true. I try not to say “The Church is not true” because most people will misunderstand the nuance and meaning of my view on that. But … the Church is not true, not like that [disclaimer: this is my personal opinion. I totally accept that I might be wrong, and fully support others who believe the Church is in fact true as it claims].
Yep. Just like my dad isn’t superman. But he *is* my dad.HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:Yep. Just like my dad isn’t superman. But he *is* my dad.
Love that!
Quote:
1 – The origin of the Book of Abraham2 – The origin of the Book Of Mormon
3 – Do modern day prophets receive real revelation
4 – What is a real tithe
5 – Where is the church spending its money
6 – Are callings really coming from God
7 – Home teaching a valuable program?
8 – Obtaining spiritual confirmation of the truth of the church
9 – Is the spirit reliable
10 – The word of wisdom in general
11 – The purpose of the temple
Numbered these to break them down, and I’ll give brief answers.
1 – Not from the papyri, that’s for sure.
2 – it’s not important where it came from, it’s important what you get out of it.
3 – In small ways perhaps, but not the grand ways of old.
4 – 10% of net income.
5 – This one is a big problem. In the church’s defense, it is worth bearing in mind though that millions will be getting spent on temple upkeep, building and maintenance, as well as maintenance of various other non-commercial properties, printing BoMs and Bibles which get given away free, and maintenance of the church broadcasting system… a considerable amount will also be spent on travel expenses, and security. A lot of money is spent on record preservation and keeping, although much of that is in terms of materials and processes, not labor.Doesn’t answer your question, but accounts for some of it.
6 – In most cases no, but then again, these are not always bad judgment.
7 – For some people, but not all.
8 – it’s clear to me that some people do, or seem to. Not everyone though.
9 – You’ll have to ask him.
10 – I can only handle it really if I break it down into sectiosn.
11 – To glorify God, and to elevate humans above the mundane. Plus lots of family stuff.
I get as frustrated as the next apostate questioner But … I can’t help but see the Church’s dilemma. They are getting pounded on now for not being completely open about it. I feel quite confident they would get pounded and picked apart to the Nth degree of tiniest detail if they openly published their budget and variance data. They literally are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
What would I do? As cynical as it sounds, giving out less information probably creates less problems to resolve.
SilentDawning wrote:If God makes these issues unclear, then he’s spared of having to levy the strict punishments that would fall upon all of us for falling short given the accoutantability that comes with perfect knowledge. That’s why he doesn’t appear to everyone — only the strongest and purist, and those capable of living up to the standards that come with perfect knowledge actually get to see Him. It’s also why Jesus spoke in parables rather than the straight truth — to lessen accountability to the weak.
Sorry I can not accept that line of reasoning. I do not want a God who hides from me on the basis of it is good for me to not know what he is doing. Would not the weakest and most troubled need God the most. Jesus did not hang out with the very best of society but what we would consider the unworthy. I think it is very elitist to say only the purest and strongest can see God. That is a Mormon philosophy that I must reject. If God saw the need to appear to me I am sure he would. He does not because there is no need. Not because of my personal righteousness.
To shroud things in complexity and double and hidden meaning I personally believe is no way for a father to teach his children. Give me the straight up forward approach anytime. Something I can get my head around without having to second guess myself all the time.
Cadence wrote:To shroud things in complexity and double and hidden meaning I personally believe is no way for a father to teach his children. Give me the straight up forward approach anytime. Something I can get my head around without having to second guess myself all the time.
I’m sorry that is what you want. I am guessing that what you *need* is a heart that informs you as much as your intellect does.HiJolly
Cadence, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but these types of questions can be asked about any religion. Let me modify these a bit for Christianity, but I think the same types of questions could come to Islam, Buddhism, or any other religion. What I mean is why does there seem for me to be so many loose ends, contradictions and open issues in [any] church if it really administers the truth.
The origin of the [Bible]. We can’t confirm a single author of the Bible, and many books have no historical validation: Esther, Genesis, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Matthew, etc.
[Did the Exodus happen?]
[Did ancient] prophets receive real revelation
What is a real [atonement]
Where is the [Catholic/Baptist/Buddhist] church spending its money (lawsuits for sexual misconduct?)
Are [any spiritual promptings] really coming from God
[Catholic/Baptist Missionary work] a valuable program?
Obtaining spiritual confirmation of [any] truth of [any] church
Is the spirit reliable
[Was Christ really resurrected, or was his body stolen?]
[Did Jesus really walk on water?]
[Did Jesus actually say anything attributed to him?]
Any church has tough questions. This is where faith is required. I recently did a post on the Exodus, and there is ZERO evidence that it actually happened. Here are quotes from several religious scholars about the Exodus. Click here for the full article:
http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/04/11/questions-about-the-exodus/
Quote:Both skeptics and believers seem to agree that faith and science are two different animals.
Hoffmeier, “For people that have religious convictions, they don’t need proof.”
Cornuke, “it all boils down to, this is a supernatural event, and you can’t explain it in any other way.”
Ultimately, the power of Exodus lies more in faith than in science.
Cooney, “There’s no real scientific proof that the Exodus took place, but as a Christian or as a Jew, you shouldn’t need scientific proof to be a person of faith. Faith doesn’t need to be scientifically proven, nor should it be; it’s faith.”
James Cameron, “It seems that the Bible, geology, and archaeology, are all telling the same story. But skeptics, who would like to regard the Exodus as myth, might resist the idea that it actually happened, because this would imply that God does indeed exist. Believers on the other hand may feel that a scientific explanation of the Biblical story takes God out of the equation. “
Simcha Jacobivici, “But in the Book of Exodus, God does not suspend nature, he manipulates it. In other words, according to the Bible, we should be able to understand the science behind the miracles. The greatest miracle of them all was the parting of the sea.
Rabbi David Wolpe believes that the historicity of the events in the Bible should not matter; faith is not determined by the same criteria as empirical truth.
Brian Johnston wrote:I get as frustrated as the next apostate questioner
The church is forced to publish its finances in the UK.
I believe that it should be the same in the USA, Australia, NZ, South Africa, Brazil, Mexico… and not just for the LDS. All churches should be forced to publish their finances, just like charities and businesses are.
Cadence wrote:To shroud things in complexity and double and hidden meaning I personally believe is no way for a father to teach his children. Give me the straight up forward approach anytime. Something I can get my head around without having to second guess myself all the time.
But that isn’t in fact what you are seeing and experiencing, thus the tension inside, the subtle anxiety you are expressing. I totally understand that feeling. You see (think) it is that way, but you
FEELit should not be so. Something is not right, not at ease, not at peace, out of balance. These are the powerful tensions that pull and pull at us until we break through and snap forward — being launched out into something new.
Something will change: you, your heart, your mind, your perspective, the world around you, or God will change. Then SNAP! Sorry to be mysterious or shrouded in complexity, but I have strong feelings against suggesting what that change must be. I think it has to be resolved naturally and organically in each of us. I don’t know what the answers is, and probably would not tell you if I knew it.
There is an answer though. I have felt that tension, and also experienced that type of “snap” a few times.
- The origin of the Book of Abraham
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