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I could argue that all of us, being human, are known for “good and evil” But I find this self proclamation by Brother Joseph quite intriguing. While I was a TBM ( I am on my journey of self doubt and speculation – hello all) I took this statement to mean that he is only good ( despite the normal flaws of man) and that any evil that would be spoken of him would be lies from anti’s ,to sully his name.
As I read more history ( as we all have) I began to wonder if maybe this prophecy was INDEED true ! That an angel did come to Joseph and proclaim this fact and Joseph in fact do evil things. But despite those actions on Joseph’s behaviour , the Gospel WAS restored. I mean the angel never said ” the evil things you would be known for will be lies.” I would assume Moroni would of just said what was true. Being an angel and all.
And if an Angel never did say this to Joseph, what would Joseph’s reason be to reveal such a thing about himslef ( if we can get in that head of his)
Could it then be that a restoration of Christ’s Church truly come from a man such as Joseph, who could do so much good despite the evil he committed?
Well, here is my first post
Great post. I’ve believed that general concept for a long time, ever since reading the many instances in the D&C and other places where Joseph is rebuked for his actions and where he appears to be fighting his natural man tendencies. In general, I believe that only very complex people have a massive impact on history – that both good and bad are magnified in the most charismatic people – those who actually change history. I don’t think Joseph was an evil person, but I also don’t think Moses, King David, Solomon, Jesus of Nazareth, Martin Luther, Winston Churchill, Bill Clinton, George Bush, etc. were evil people – even though all of them were seen as evil by many of their contemporaries, and it would be quite easy to argue that they were both good and evil.
This is one of those verses I would love to parse for a place like Mormon Mattrers, but I’m not going to do it – since I am positive it would end up being twisted into a criticism and rejection of Joseph in that forum. It wouldn’t be. It would be an acknowledgment of this complexity – and an acceptance that Prophets really can be known for good and evil.
I think if one honestly looks at the qualifications of those who were called by god to be prophets over the course of history, that the logical conclusion is that really there is NO requirement necessary. Some of these guys were considered much more “despicable” than JS. Moses was a “murderer.” Nephi was a “murderer” and a thief. Paul was REALLY a “murderer.” Moses married an young Egyptian hotty in his old age… Was it Abraham that sired children through his daughters. I’m guessing most OT prophets had multiple wives and concubines and “handmades”, and they probably didn’t treat them well, at least in our standards, because that’s just how culture was back then. I’m sure there were many who owned slaves. JS used a peep stone to find treasure – and started “a cult” that condoned plural marriage with teenage girls… I’m guessing that if we knew all the prophets and had a good press with TV and the internet, they would all be known for good and evil — and probably a lot of it would be justified from a cultural standpoint.
cwald wrote:I think if one honestly looks at the qualifications of those who were called by god to be prophets over the course of history, that the logical conclusion is that really there is NO requirement necessary. Some of these guys were considered much more “despicable” than JS. Moses was a “murderer.” Nephi was a “murderer” and a thief. Paul was REALLY a “murderer.” Moses married an young Egyptian hotty in his old age… Was it Abraham that sired children through his daughters. I’m guessing most OT prophets had multiple wives and concubines and “handmades”, and they probably didn’t treat them well, at least in our standards, because that’s just how culture was back then. I’m sure there were many who owned slaves. JS used a peep stone to find treasure – and started “a cult” that condoned plural marriage with teenage girls…
I’m guessing that if we knew all the prophets and had a good press with TV and the internet, they would all be known for good and evil — and probably a lot of it would be justified from a cultural standpoint.
Good post… Why is it that all the prophets have to have such questionable behavior. With so many good men and women in the world why would such men be called as a prophet? The argument that we all have our flaws really annoys me. Their behavior is well beyond simple flaws. Sure we are not all perfect but c’mon!!! I’m sorry but my expectations of how a prophet should behave is much higher than that! Who cares what is culturally acceptable… if you expect me to believe that they are a direct, enlightened, representative of God then they should be above it all.
Old Timer wrote:In general, I believe that only very complex people have a massive impact on history – that both good and bad are magnified in the most charismatic people – those who actually change history.
I hate the idea that you must be extreme in both sides to have a substantial impact on history. Please tell me that truly good people exist who have the ability to change the world for the better in a massive way. I am starting to get a little depressed. I believe in goodness. I am feeling disappointed in the goodness of humanity today. I need to watch less news.
I have to agree with Cwald on this one. mormonheretic wrote:I have to agree with Cwald on this one.
😯 😯 😯 😯 This might be a first for us MH!
Old Timer, Mormon Heretic and cwald agree on something. Write it is stone; it must be Truth.
:ugeek: Maybe it is as simple as Joseph had a bit of an ego and liked to proclaim things. It is not uncommon I think for charismatic leaders to do such things. Maybe he really believed it. Maybe it was a self fulfilling prophecy. It certainly did seem to come to pass
CWald, I never thought we were that far off on most topics. I think we agree more often than you think!
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