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Good morning! I need some help from the wise and “been there done that” members of this community. As I have worked to get honest about my intentions and my beliefs, I have realized that much of my feeling “torn” about the church over the past several years has been that I simply don’t have a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith or the need for a full restoration. I have a strong testimony of God as my loving Father, of Jesus as my personal Savior, and of the gifts and comfort provided by the Holy Ghost. I also can’t shake some of the powerful and peaceful experiences I have had through the gift of the Priesthood. Those experiences have helped me figure “it is just all true” until I was hit with some harder questions in the past couple of years. If you have a testimony of prophets and that Joseph Smith truly was the prophet of the restoration, could you please share with me how you gained such a testimony? What role did the Book of Mormon play in that? As a side question, if the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the Gospel” why is there no mention of the temple ordinances and eternal families?
Any personal insight or recommended resources would be very much appreciated!
Blessings,
Professionalmom
professionalmom wrote:Good morning! I need some help from the wise …
…I think that disqualifies me right there…oh well.
But maybe you won’t mind me sharing my thoughts to your questions…for me…I compartmentalize things. The Book of Mormon inspires me to love my family and those I come in contact with. I also feel the spirit when I read it…and it makes me believe God loves me just the way I am. Maybe Nephi had a temple experience in the mountains, maybe he didn’t…it doesn’t change how the book inspires me when I read it.
However, no one knows my weaknesses better than I do. Why am I worth something to God when I have all my weaknesses? I think it is because there is potential in me. Right now…I’m not perfect. I wish I was better, like others I admire. But regardless, God loves me the way I am, while I’m working to be better with every opportunity today.
If God works that way with me…I think He does the same for others. Including Joseph Smith. So because of that…I think God can work with and work through imperfect people. I can accept that. It feels right to me. So, I can let go of expecting all things Joseph did were “inspired” and all things he said were the absolute truth. He was just trying to do what God wanted him to, that doesn’t mean to me he succeeded…he just did his best and I have admiration for him, despite the things I’ve read about his conduct at times. Just like my bishop is imperfect…but a good guy trying. I will try to obey him and sustain him, even when disagreeing with him. Just like my mom is imperfect, but will always have my love and respect and honor for what she’s done for me…I can also respect Joseph as a prophet…as much as Moses or any other prophet…or my mom.
The things Joseph Smith said and did that really bother me are opportunities for me to have faith in God, despite the prophet or despite the church.
Well, PMom, here’s my strange take on the traditional fundamentals you asked about. First, I’ll tell you what I’ve decided it’s safe to openly disbelieve in. I don’t believe in a Universal Great Apostasy. Rather, I believe that the Father loves his children always and everywhere. Mine is a beautiful disbelief because the Apostasy is not an article of our faith. Rather, it’s just a core part of the story we tell and believe. Hmm. That’s convoluted. Let me try again. A belief in a Universal Great Apostasy is a de facto part of real Mormonism, but not a necessary part of Pure Mormonism. In other words, nobody will ever ask you whether you have faith in The Great Apostasy. On the other hand, we all experience great apostasy personally and as communities and groups.
Now, about Joseph Smith. After my great second conversion epiphany in 2003, I was reading “Lucy’s Book”, a special edition of Lucy Mack Smith’s history (largely of Mormonism and her son Joseph; the Mormonism according to Lucy). The words and actions of the early Joseph Smith as reported by Lucy simply had a familiar ring to me that compelled me to say to myself, “This young man knows what I know. He has seen what I have seen. He has felt what I have felt.” Because of experiences like that, I have not had any difficulty looking anybody in the eye and saying, “I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer, and revelator.” To me, he was! Joseph Smith saw God. Have we?
That brings us to the restoration (or Restoration). On a personal level, it’s clear to me that the “gospel” must be “restored” to each of us in these the latter days, and in all times and places. On a historical level, it seems plain to me that Joseph restored something beautiful to many people, and that his story continues to be meaningful to many today. I can’t for the life of me figure out what would possess him to say that his church was “the only true and living church upon the face of the earth”. But I don’t feel any obligation to explain it, apologize it, or take it to mean anything that is patently offensive or useless to the purposes of Oneness. I’m comfortable with the idea he was speaking with Joseph Smithian bluster (like “I told them that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book…nearer to God…any other book!” or “By what authority did he take it upon himself to modify or command me to change one of the revelations?”). I’m also comfortable with the idea he had something esoteric in mind that didn’t communicate or publish very well.
Finally, the Book of Mormon. The BofM does contain the Sermon on the Mount. It also contains many philosophies of men. And even the Sermon on the Mount is an approximation of the fullness of the Gospel. The Book of Mormon is full of truth and full of error.
I recommend without reservation that you look outward to find all the goodness and beauty you can in all the world. Here are the things that have helped me to ground in bedrock principles and see others more clearly. Put on your list whatever interests you from this list:
books by the Arbinger Institute (Bonds the Make us Free, The Anatomy of Peace, the Peacegiver, Leadership and Self Deception, The Choice, etc.)
- near death testimonies (there are dozens at near-death.com and hundreds at iands.org)
- the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Luke, the Gospel of Thomas, and the Didache
- the Bhagavad Gita (I loved the Arnold translation)
- the Tao Te Ching (read it in a half hour or a lifetime) and Eckhart Tolle’s “A New Earth” (Oprah Book Club)
- Heaven and Hell by Emmanuel Swedenborg (this helped me put Joseph’s theological insights into historical perspective)
- The Power of Myth with Joseph Campbell
One day suddenly (October 27, 2003) it all just made sense. The promises are true. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. Ask and you will receive.
Kevin Williams wrote:Imagine the universe – your reality – as though there is nothing else. God and heaven are fantasies of weak minds. For the sake of the analogy, label this kind of reality as a bubble which you had lived all your life – in a bubble – the universe – the only reality. You are certain there is nothing outside of this bubble. Period. Anyone who said differently was either lying, on drugs, or crazy. Then, something inspires you to read a well-known fairy-tale book just out of curiosity. As you read it, the fantasy tale starts to make sense to you. It begins to reveal secrets to you which you know are true that have never been expressed before. You begin to think this information comes from a reality you never experienced before. It is speaking to your very soul and makes complete sense to your heart and mind. You no longer believe it is a fantasy book, but the very words of God. You can’t put it down until you read the whole thing. While this is going on, something is happening to your bubble but you keep reading. When you finish it, you realize that you just read the secrets of the universe but the whole world thinks it is a fairy tale book. When you are done and look up from the book, you realize that the bubble is gone. It popped. And now you are living in an entirely different world – even though it just looks the same. But more importantly, a different person is now in your body. The one who was in it before is gone. Now, you want to put on your white robe and sandals and climb the mountaintop to shout the Gospel and wait for Jesus to come.
And even after you return to your senses, you never view reality the same way again. Now you know how crazy is that guy Tom Haws.
I find that I am confronted with the reality that I have a testimony of some things Joseph taught and are included in the Book of Mormon and yet there are other things that I simply do not accept or at least admit I do not currently understand. So I accept and appreciate Joseph Smith for the things that he taught that are a part of my testimony – the reality of a loving Father and Mother in Heaven, the increased understanding of the extent of the Atonement. I accept and appreciate the Book of Mormon for it’s confirmation of the life, mission and atonement of the Savior. I have chosen to focus (often not very successfully I admit) on the things I DO believe. The things I do not believe or currently understand often creep up and try to sabotage the testimony I DO have. My struggle is to remain focused on what I can accept and do have a testimony of.
So Joseph Smith is a true prophet because he revealed important truths that are a part of my testimony. The Book of Mormon is true because it teaches aspects that are a part of my testimony. I try to focus on that and feel confident that the Lord accepts my testimony right where it is – no matter how it does or doesn’t compare to the testimony of others.
My testimony of Joseph Smith is that he was something. I have not determined what, I maybe never will. Was he a prophet? Very likely he was. I can not but think he was hooked into something. Whatever it was however seems to be diminished since his death. I think it’s important to remember that Joseph was flawed. If we look at the mainstream airbrushed version, we may end up being hurt when we read genuine accounts of the man, and I don’t just mean attacks by his enemies. Bearing this in mind, I think he was an incredible man whether or not we consider him a prophet. How many people could have pulled off what he did?
I think if I have a testimony of Joseph Smith it is because of the incredible things which have come through him, and many of which have been beneficial to people’s lives.
SamBee wrote:I think it’s important to remember that Joseph was flawed.
Right. Is a prophet, after all, a superhuman? No. Do I sustain Brother Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator? Yes. I also sustain my bishop, wife, dad, mom, and Elders Quorum President (Hi, Brother Pratt) as the same.
It’s a bit like a marriage/relationship too. Unless you appreciate that the other half is flawed in some ways, they’ll never live up to your expectations. Although some people have smaller flaws than others! đ Sometimes flaws are endearing in themselves, but with Joseph unless you see the bad, you’ll never appreciate fully the good. What did he write? Opposition in all things. Including himself.professionalmom wrote:If you have a testimony of prophets and that Joseph Smith truly was the prophet of the restoration, could you please share with me how you gained such a testimony? What role did the Book of Mormon play in that?
I do have a strong testimony of the Book of Mormon. The most poignant experience I had was after reading it in 2005 or so. When I finished it, I had this overwhelming feeling that I wanted to be good. In reading the BoM, I saw the hundreds of years of people making mistakes and the peace that came to the righteous, even when they were suffering. And it inspired me to simply want to be good. It was a very strong feeling.
I also find the passages have resonated with me as true – there are so many of them, such as Mosiah 24 that explains how to bring divine intervention to your life, the clear explanation of the law of Justice and Mercy which no one could explain to me in other faiths, the role of the atonement in covering for people who sinned ignorantly. The general life principles in King Benjamin’s Discourse, etcetera. They speak to my mind and my heart. And I’ve seen the principles WORK when I’ve applied them.
However, I still struggle a bit with Joseph Smith. I can’t seem to make the leap from “The Book of Mormon is true, therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet”. So, I’ll have to leave that to others to explain.
Quote:As a side question, if the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the Gospel” why is there no mention of the temple ordinances and eternal families?
Excellent question! I’ve asked the same of myself when I was teaching a lesson about the BoM. After studying and thinking about it, I reached this conclusion:
1. The purpose of the gospel is to help us overcome SPIRITUAL death, which means ending our separation from God. Once saved in the celestial kingdom, you have overcome spiritual death.
2. The Doctrine and Covenants indicates that baptism and the GofHG is necessary to enter into the lowest level of the celestial kingdom — not temple ordinances.
3. Therefore, the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel because it provides all the principles necessary to overcome spiritual death. The principles of faith, repentence, baptism and the GofHG are clearly defined over and over in the Book of Mormon, and are all that is necessary to have eternal life with God.
You might also argue that in obeying the principles in the BoM of Faith, Repentence, Baptism and GofHG, you get access to the other principles of the gospel that allow for eternal increase. In this sense, the BoM becomes the gateway or access point to the fulness of the gospel. Look at the BoM as the door that opens into an ante-room. In that anteroom you get the principles that qualify you for life with God. Because you entered that door (joined the Church), there is another door, which, when opened, provides additional, higher commitments that also lead to eternal increase and families. So, in a sense — the first door, being a gateway, contains access to the fulness of the gospel.
I think I actually believe more now that Joseph Smith was a prophet, seeing all the “warts,” than when he was the marble statue of a prophet I grew up with. There always seemed something off about that. But a guy that was lousy at business, politics, a foolish husband (I cringe at times), but also a dreamer, a visionary, a mystic, someone who inspired masses to stretch their souls and minds, and someone who seemed to transcend his flawed stupidity so many times — that’s a prophet I can believe in, a real person just like me. Maybe I see him as less special in the grand scheme of the universe. He is as much a “prophet” as any other person we call a prophet: Moses, Mohammad, the Buddha, Jesus the Nazarene, and all the other mortals who tapped into that deep deep well of the divine. Joseph Smith created “scripture” that has withstood the test of time and inspired millions, and founded a religious movement/church. If that isn’t a prophet, I don’t know how else to define that word.
I posted a comment last night but deleted it. Too many bad feelings. At least the good decent people that have followed have taken what he started and tried their best to make something good out of it. At least that’s something. Its OK GBSmith. I understand. My wife sees Joseph with a very disappointed (angry) and critical eye. I totally get where she is coming from, even if I make meaning out of it differently. It isn’t that you don’t have examples and just cause to be upset. This OP was asking for reasons to keep some form of belief in Joseph as a prophet, so let’s keep that in mind (answers to that specific question). Feel free to start another thread to discuss things that disappoint you. We are more than happy to discuss that too, keeping in mind the parameters of how we frame conversations here in this particular community — how to resolve those feelings. To be open and fair though, one resolution is to no longer believe that JS was a prophet, as long as that leads us to a state of peace and compassion. On some level (my personal opinion only), it requires us to acquire a sense of forgiveness for Joseph and his “humanity” in addition to having a deep sense of forgiveness for and acceptance of our own flaws — much easier said than done, at least I know that from my own internal process of looking into the mirror at my own soul.
Hi ProfMom! You ask a great question. When you say âfull restorationâ have you thought about what you mean by that? And if âfullâ may be an assumption that you donât really need to carry? I donât know any Mormon that would claim the restoration is full and complete. What about the 9th article of faith â that He will YET reveal many important things? Do we claim to have an exclusive corner on all truth? The Sunday school answer that I hear is âof course not, all people have elements of truth.â So if we donât have the full and complete truth, and others also have truth, I donât see that we are really all that exclusive in our official claims. Does Mormon culture claim something different? Obviously Iâd agree yes, but we donât need to worry about cultural items quite as much. What about âauthorityâ? The church claims to have the exclusive authority to act in Godâs name. I think there are also other ways to view this as well. Elder Uchdorfâs recent talk âyou are my handsâ expresses very well that we can all be agents for God in accomplishing his purposes. We also know that faith and Godâs will are the most important elements in any healing â that Mary Fielding layed hands on her Ox and it was healed. There are many ways to view authority from God. I would assume some human interpretation is also involved in our cultural understanding of priesthood.
As far as the Book of Mormon not mentioning Temples, Richard Bushman made a good point in his podcast that âgospelâ does not equal âdoctrine.â The fullness of the gospel is not the same as the fullness of the doctrine. Our activities, policies, and doctrine will adjust from time to time, but the gospel is at its core (in the ideal at least).
Brian J. said something one time that I have found to be quite profound, and I have pondered on it much through the last couple years. He said something like: âEven if Joseph Smith at times saw himself as a fraud, he still got some things right!â To me that statement has tremendous depth. We are all human, we all see ourselves and others in different ways at different times. I’m not saying I see any compelling evidence that Joseph saw himself as a fraud, I’m just considering a hypothetical. It is hard to deny the point that Heber was making â that God CAN accomplish great works through imperfect people, and that millions of people have been inspired through many of the things that Joseph Smith said and did.
Brian Johnston wrote:Feel free to start another thread
Thanks, Brian. I think I’ll pass for now. I’m not much of a thread starter. More of a lurker at heart. I’ll wait until I can be more constructive.
GBSmith wrote:Brian Johnston wrote:Feel free to start another thread
Thanks, Brian. I think I’ll pass for now. I’m not much of a thread starter. More of a lurker at heart. I’ll wait until I can be more constructive.
I respect GBSmith for that decision; I’ve been trying to do that too. It shows a goodness of heart to pass…..notwithstanding Brian’s kind offer.
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