Home Page › Forums › General Discussion › Why do we have to be told we’re ok?
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July 17, 2010 at 2:20 am #205214
Anonymous
GuestThere’s a post and long thread on MM now having to do with sex and marriage and what is ok. It’s about played itself out but it brought to mind something I’ve wondered about on and off for awhile. The jist of the thread is a woman asking a mormon therapist if her and her husband’s sexual life is acceptable within church standards. I offered the following comment but nobody’s picked up on it so I wondered what other’s might think. Quote:It’s interesting to me and possibly the topic of a post all by itself as to why LDS people seem to need to be told what is OK. It’s like we’ve lost the ability to decide for ourselves what is or is not sinful and to determine what we need to do or not do to be forgiven. I remember an acquaintance who was Lutheran and a counselor/psychologist that was just insensed at the idea that someone needed to sit as a judge or be an intermediary between us and God. Just what is it that’s made us so insecure about the lives we lead and the things we do? It’s like were issued a brain and then told we don’t know how to use it. That anyone would need to ask the questions posited in the OP is beyond me.
Anyway, I’d appreciate other’s opinions.
July 17, 2010 at 4:49 am #233391Anonymous
GuestGBSmith, You ask a very important question. I tend to think that our society has taught us that we don’t have the answers. Think of how many self-help books there are and how many experts are out there. Just today between tv and radio I heard or surfed past many experts; Dr. Phil, Oprah, Doctor Oz, The Doctors and The John Tesh Radio Show called “Intelligence for life”. We are bombarded with experts opinions so much that we don’t listen to our own inner voice telling us what is right or wrong.
I read most of the OP on MM and I was well shocked by many of the comments. Those are questions I would never take to a Bishop or in most cases even a close friend. I believe in my marriage’s ability to figure it out. I’ve changed in my thinking though. 5 years ago I didn’t trust myself quite so much. What brought on the change was that I began thinking for myself in small ways and finding out that my world didn’t blow up and infact I could make very good decisions that led to good things in my life. Experimenting upon the word is a true principle. I also had to shut out the expert voices and that included church and general conference for awhile. I had to learn how to hear my own voice again. I have spent too many years looking for approval from others. It is a horrible way to live.
I’m not sure if my obsession with approval from others comes from being raised in the church, my family or if it is just part of my personality. Probably a combination of all three and more factors. I’m trying to teach my children differently. They need to know how to listen to their own inner voice. This is getting more and more difficult with the outer noise kids these days have in their ears.
I do wish more people would trust themselves. I think that if we would listen to ourselves more our lives would be more fulfilling.
July 17, 2010 at 6:16 am #233392Anonymous
GuestQuote:I’m not sure if my obsession with approval from others comes from being raised in the church, my family or if it is just part of my personality.
All of the above and more, I’m sure. It is one of the most basic and powerful natural tendencies we have – and the principle is not entirely bad, even if it is far too strong in far too many. Balance is the key, imo – and, in this case especially, it is not close to easy.
July 17, 2010 at 2:21 pm #233393Anonymous
GuestI’d like to draw a comparison to the structure of this life, with the structure of Master’s courses I’ve taken. One school I went to in my 20’s was filled with highly intelligent people who’d had significant achievements before entering their Master’s program at our school. They had really high GMAT scores and many were geniuses.
The course work was made extremely difficult, throwing in a lot of higher-order thinking processes and a huge amount of ambiguity. This bothered me as a student, all this ambiguity, concepts I’d never heard of before that were mine to research and figure out before I could even answer the homework questions — there was so little guidance. I always fel like I was behind the 8-ball, and so did almost everyone else.
Then, fast forward 10 years — I’m teaching university myself, and I get a class of really intelligent students. They WALKED ALL OVER ME. They used their intelligence every step of the way to challenge classroom policies, to try to back me into a corner on the most miniscule issues etcetera.
Then I implemented a NEW ORDER OF RIGOR. I responded by elevating the rigor of the course substantially, so many students were extremely challenged. No more leading and guiding every step of the way — only people who would work hard and implement critical thinking skills would survive with the grades they were used to getting. And by the way, the new rigor made for a very attentive class when it came time to discuss answers to quizzes and assignments.
The political machinations stopped. The students were on the defensive now trying to simply keep their heads above water. Many respected the course now, and the focus turned toward learning.
I’ve often wondered if life has been structured like the New Order in my class. Made intentionally murky and lacking guidance so we truly stretch for truth. So we are receptive to it and yearn for it — make our spirits more receptive when it ulimately comes.
And a bi-product of this murkiness is a desire to get approval from easier sources of truth — such as imperfect local leaders who are strugglign themselves to understand the truth. That’s why people want to be told everything. It’s much harder to figure it out on your own.
July 17, 2010 at 5:51 pm #233394Anonymous
GuestAll normal, healthy humans spend some period in their life looking to their group for answers and information about their world (family, church, community, country, etc.). Not only is this normal, like I said, but it is an important part of our very survival. We are not born without a lot of instinctual, hard-wired programming. That makes us both highly adaptable, and increases our ability to literally survive in the world, but at the same time makes us weak and dependent on information given to us by others who have survived in our species (parents, adults and leaders). How would you know which are the safe plants and which are the poison ones? How do you know what animals are food and which ones will kill you? How do you know which neighboring tribes are friendly and which ones will kill you? You know how to find shelter, food, safety and everything else by getting the “true” answers from your community.
Most adults never leave this framework. They just ask more questions that are harder to answer. Some of us, the minority, leave this mode of thinking to some extent or another — to stop depending on our tribe for the “true” answer, but instead decide what it is on our own, because of our own “true” way of figuring it out (whatever that is). So a couple asks their Bishop if the kind of sex they have is approved by the Church. Another couple decides by trial and error what they are comfortable with, because they figured it out somehow.
The same thing goes with the ultimate answers to religion. We don’t have the “true” answers here at StayLDS. But we are free to toss around ideas and get feedback. That can be really useful for people trying to find their own answers. I know it helps me a lot. I am very “blessed” to see experiences through other people’s eyes here.
July 18, 2010 at 6:08 am #233395Anonymous
GuestBrian Johnston wrote:All normal, healthy humans spend some period in their life looking to their group for answers and information about their world (family, church, community, country, etc.). Not only is this normal, like I said, but it is an important part of our very survival. We are not born without a lot of instinctual, hard-wired programming. That makes us both highly adaptable, and increases our ability to literally survive in the world, but at the same time makes us weak and dependent on information given to us by others who have survived in our species (parents, adults and leaders).
I agree that’s it vital that we learn the norms. Knowing them as Brian says will keep us safe and in a societal sense within the bounds of correctness from home and family to ultimately the law. In a religious sense they keep us away for what is spiritually destructive, let us be part of the group and again ultimately away from sin. The thing that I think can be damaging is when we turn over responsibility to someone to whom we’ve ceded authority. Then we take the easy way in that we let someone else set the rules and then all we have to do is stay within the lines and if they’re aren’t lines, we ask for them. And in doing that we never do learn the “correct principles” and we never really do “govern ourselves”. Since we get to live with the consequences of the things we do, I think it’s best for us to try and be the ones who figure out what’s ok if we need to get right with the Lord. Someone else will always have an opinion but it’s our life.
July 18, 2010 at 1:30 pm #233396Anonymous
GuestErm, to avoid sticking your foot in it? I have my personal beliefs, but I have to calculate what I’m going to say, like a diplomat. July 18, 2010 at 7:30 pm #233397Anonymous
GuestThis is why I loved reading this by Brigham Young: Personal ResponsibilityBy Brigham Young
In the early history of the Church, many converts who joined with the body of the Saints expected to find a spiritual utopia. Frustrated at finding that the communities of the Saints were populated with people, who in many instances were no better than themselves, some of these immigrants voiced their disillusionment and left the Church. These people had anticipated a Zion in which they could bask in spiritual light day and night. Longing to be nurtured by revelations, miracles, and manifestations of divine power, they sought heaven on earth. They did not realize that spiritual maturity often comes slowly and that many, like themselves, find the courage and strength necessary to overcome their own weaknesses. Of such people, Brigham Young would inquire, “What hinders you from enjoying all that you anticipated?” If you are not as you desire to be, if you do not feel the prompting or influence of the Holy Ghost to the extent that you think you should, where is the fault to be found? Responding to his own question, President Young explained that it was a mistake to suppose that others could prevent you from enjoying the light of God in your soul. “All hell,” he said, “cannot hinder me from enjoying Zion in my own heart, if my individual will yields obedience to the requirements and mandates of my Heavenly Master “ (JD 1:311). Brigham Young declared himself to be the only man in heaven, on earth, or in hell responsible for Brigham Young. Further he held that the same doctrine applied equally to every Latter-day Saint. Salvation is an individual matter. “I am the only person that can accept Christ and save myself,” said Brigham. We cannot pin our faith on someone else’s sleeve. No one can accept or reject salvation in behalf of another. It is not the object or design of the gospel to create spiritual dependence. Of those who constantly suspend their own judgment to lean upon others they suppose to have greater wisdom than themselves, President Young said that they ‘will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming gods.” They cannot rule themselves, let alone give direction to others. Spiritually, he likened them to children who need direction in every trifle. “They cannot control themselves in th least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They can never become gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives.” Who will?” asked President Young, “those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heave, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course.” Ibid, p.312) (taken from SEEKING THE SPIRIT by Joseph Fielding McConkie)
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