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I was born in the church, in Provo, Utah, and have been active all my life. I never strayed in my youth. Never did drugs. Never slept with my girlfriends. I went to seminary and all the church activities, always. I wore a white shirt and tie every Sunday. Read the Book of Mormon countless times. Served a mission. Went to BYU. Married in the temple. Served in the church. Voted Republican. I have also been so incredibly judgmental my entire life of those who believed differently from me. I was so absolutely sure of my own beliefs, that I couldn’t imagine a world outside of them.
However, there were little things that bugged be about the church. Like the no-R-rated-movies commandment. And Caffeine. So I would watch The Godfather with a cold Coke now and again. And I learned on my mission–my first real life experience–how much I hated Church Authority. My MTC Branch President was a crazy person. My Mission President was a native of the country, and was kind of an idiot. Of course, my Zone and District Leaders were just kids like me who were getting their first taste of authority, so they usually didn’t use it responsibly. I remember the anger I had to push down into my gut when one of my leaders would make some silly, arbitrary rule based on their own interpretations and understandings. But I understood the hierarchical and patriarchal nature of the church, and knew that obedience was the most important thing.
I knew everything about Church history. I knew every mistake made by every leader, every contradiction in prophecy, every horrible accusation ever made against the church. But all of this just seemed to bolster my testimony. I was able to find a way for it all to come together perfectly like a complex jigsaw. I knew the big picture, and knew the place of every, little, seemingly errant piece.
Any way, fast forward to now. I am 30 years old, have a wonderful Mormon family, with three perfect children. And I am absolutely certain that there is no god.
I honestly can’t recount the steps that brought me here because its been a back and forth battle for years. But the Gay Marriage debate was a big step for me.
I’d always judged homosexuals the way I had been taught to: I was sickened by them. Love the sinner, hate the sin. But when I was asked to do some time in a call center trying to influence California voters, that didn’t sit right for me, and I declined. Some time after that, several friends and family members came out. And suddenly it was very easy for me to see the other side.
How can we expect them to live their entire lives alone? We used to have them just get married to a woman anyway, and trust in god to heal their illness. Then we realized that it wasn’t an illness, so we decided they can be gay, but must never act on it. As if physical intimacy is not an integral component of a healthy and happy life.
I’ve discovered a whole new world outside of the Church. All the science I shunned in my youth… now I can’t get enough of it. I love to just sit and read about the big bang, evolution, astronomy. My new hero is Carl Sagan. It was an amazing day in my life when I realized that I didn’t have to believe what I had been taught to believe. I can believe what is actually true. What is provable, and logical, and sound. When I think of the elaborate jigsaw puzzle I used to hold sacred, and how hard I had to work to make those pieces fit together, I can’t believe I spent the first third of my life like that. What a waste of time.
On the other hand, I can’t seem to give up my happy experiences in the church. Even though I am seeing my life through new eyes, I still cherish my mission, my temple marriage, singing primary songs. Those were special times.
This forum has been a great help to me. I’ve been lurking for quite some time and thought I’d finally start posting.
Right now in my life, I really hate going to Church, and its a huge point of contention with my wife. She does not know that I have lost my testimony, but she can tell something is up. She knows about a lot of my beliefs, and how they differ from the Church, and she even agrees with me on most things, but she also makes sure I see her reading her scriptures and the Ensign every single day. She hounds me when I don’t go to church. She starts crying to me if someone at church asked her where I was and she had to tell them I’m just at home. I attend about every other week or so, but that just isn’t good enough.
The weeks I do drag myself into church are torture. I just hate being there. The lessons are so boring. I’ve heard everything there is to hear, over and over and over again. I’ve taught it all many times. And none of it is true. And everyone is so happy to be sitting there and listening to the nonsense. If I didn’t have my iPhone, and kids to chase around, I’d probably start hitting people at random.
Everyone in my life is Mormon. My friends, my coworkers, my parents and siblings, grandparents, neighbors…. I can’t ever leave the church. I need to find a way to make the best of it and not let my problems with the church ruin the most valuable relationships in my life.
Welcome, sao. It sounds like you’ve hit the proverbial wall and now need to find a way around it to the peace that can be found on the other side. It’s not easy, but we’re here to help. Have you read the stuff we’ve posted and discussed here about Fowler’s Stages of Faith? If not, I recommend it highly. If I may be direct, it sounds like you’ve switched one extreme (everything about the Church is true and right and sublime) for an alternate extreme (nothing about the Church is true and right and sublime). Your paradigm has changed, but the overall “orientation” (the fundamental way you are looking at things) hasn’t. If it helps, that is not unique; it happens to a lot of people who hit the wall and face the need to reconstruct their worldview. It just isn’t productive at all in the long run.
If I were to give one piece of advice, it would be to focus at the individual level on learning about charity and becoming more charitable. You mentioned explicitly that you have been judgmental all your life. Has that changed with your new perspective – or is that something you still need to try to improve and change? From the tone of your introduction, I believe it probably is the latter, so I would focus on understanding charity more deeply and becoming more charitable personally.
Right now, it’s ALL about you – and, again, that happens to most people who slam into Stage 4 head-on. Healing starts, however, when you realize it really is all about love and how you can “exercise” love as a verb. It’s still about you to an important degree, but it’s not ALL about you anymore – and that is a liberating discovery.
Again, welcome!
Been there, done that and bought the T shirt. Whether there’s a God or not the message of loving your neighbor is a good one and and good place to start. All the other stuff that can make you crazy you can set aside for now. The world needs people who care and it sounds like you do. There’s places at the table for all of us. Good luck. Hey Startallover, Welcome to the forums as an active participant. Glad to have you with us for the ride. I love the name you picked. It has a lot of meaning. I hope you feel like this is a place where you can kick around some of your ideas. You won’t freak any of us out or upset us, so that is why we are here. I have to rush out the door, but I wanted to make a couple of quick comments.
startallover wrote:I have also been so incredibly judgmental my entire life of those who believed differently from me. I was so absolutely sure of my own beliefs, that I couldn’t imagine a world outside of them.
This is ooooooh so common among us, those who make the transition. I know many of us can relate. Here is the challenging observation, based on my personal experiences and observations — you have to find a way to forgive yourself of this. It is really important at some point to allow yourself to feel compassion for yourself in your past. That kind of change in perspective seems to me to be how I can start to have compassion for others that I encounter who still are like that. It takes some detachment.
startallover wrote:However, there were little things that bugged be about the church. Like the no-R-rated-movies commandment. And Caffeine. So I would watch The Godfather with a cold Coke now and again.
😆 startallover wrote:Any way, fast forward to now. I am 30 years old, have a wonderful Mormon family, with three perfect children. And I am absolutely certain that there is no god.
Another very quick observation: Ask yourself if you believe there is really no possibility of any being or concept of God, or do you really mean that you do not believe in a specific Mormon idea of God you were raised with. Typically, and this is just my observation, an atheist is someone who rejects their former idea of God. There are many many different ways to construct “God” beyond an exalted man, wearing white robes and a beard, sitting on a throne on Kolob. Could God be the sense of moral good in humanity? Could it be an organizing force? Could we be splintered fragments of God (a more eastern view)? A metaphorical construction of God is a lot easier for many of us to approach, and is also more comfortable when we are at peace with simply not knowing.
startallover wrote:I’ve discovered a whole new world outside of the Church. All the science I shunned in my youth… now I can’t get enough of it. I love to just sit and read about the big bang, evolution, astronomy.
I can’t believe I spent the first third of my life like that. What a waste of time. AWESOME! There is indeed a whole world out there of beautiful ideas. Most of us actively supplement our spirituality with outside sources that speak to us, and feed us. I disagree with viewing our life as a waste of time though. This goes back to that sense of compassion for our self, so important to being at peace and having a healthy relationship with others. I would not be who I am today without the experiences and beliefs I had in the past.
Look on the bright side. You are only 30. I was 50 when it all came apart. You have time to redirect your life into something meaningful for you and your family. Startallover: 1. Even if the Church is false and there is no God, reflect on the good life it’s led you to live. It sounds like the worst you did was watch an R-rated movie with a Coke in your hand. Your life sounds like it’s been very clean and generally good to date. Could this be a reason to stick with it even thought it’s lost its luster?
2. Because one’s religious philosophy does have an impact on one’s actions, and the goodness of one’s life — what do you propose to teach your children so they too make it into adulthood and beyond with good values? Is there some other philosophy that you’re intimate with that you think will impart the same clean living and good values as your own religion has?
3. What impact do you expect your turn to atheism will have on our wife and your family? How do you plan to cope with this impact?
I ask these questions only because they are the same questions I’ve asked myself as I was jarred out of State 3 of Flowler’s “stages” of faith. Part of what has kept me active is recognizing that the same doubts I have about the LDS Church will also exist in other Churches and philosophies of life as well. At least the Church gives clear guidelines and support mechanisms to help families rear solid children and avoid many pitfalls that destroy relationships.
startallover wrote:
…I learned on my mission…how much I hated Church Authority…My Mission President was…kind of an idiot. I am 30 years old, have a wonderful Mormon family…And I am absolutely certain that there is no god…I really hate going to Church, and its a huge point of contention with my wife. She does not know that I have lost my testimony, but she can tell something is up…She starts crying to me if someone at church asked her where I was…The weeks I do drag myself into church are torture. I just hate being there. The lessons are so boring. I’ve heard everything there is to hear, over and over and over again. I’ve taught it all many times. And none of it is true…Everyone in my life is Mormon…I can’t ever leave the church. I need to find a way to make the best of it and not let my problems with the church ruin the most valuable relationships in my life.
If it’s really making you that miserable I would seriously consider just coming clean and telling your wife that you don’t believe in God. It might be painful at first but at the same time the rest of your life is an awful long time to put up with all this Mormon “nonsense” as you put it especially from the point-of-view that this life is the only one you will ever have. Maybe you don’t feel ready to do that at this point and I understand if that’s the case; it’s just a suggestion to think about if things don’t get any better as the months and years go by. As for myself, I try not to let what other people believe bother me quite as much as it used to because it can be an endless source of frustration to dwell on things like this that are mostly out of our control.
There is no evidence for the non-existence of God, you can’t prove a negative… Even in my nearest approach to atheism, I realized that a Dawkins-esque position is actually having a kind of belief which cannot be completely vindicated. Okay, so I believe in God now, but I realize that’s a position I’ve taken, just as complete non-belief would be. That’s perhaps why for years, agnosticism, not atheism was the logical choice for me.
Hi Startallover! Glad you found us – and decided to post an intro. I can personally relate to much of what you write. I can remember having very similar thoughts myself. It sounds like you feel a need to remain connected to the church:
startallover wrote:I can’t ever leave the church. I need to find a way to make the best of it and not let my problems with the church ruin the most valuable relationships in my life.
This sounds like wise thinking, and personally I’d say you’ve come to the right place, this is what we do – talk about strategies for remaining meaningfully involved with the church. You have already received some valuable advice on this thread. We can go step-by-step with you, regarding some things that we have found to be effective – if you’re interested. As with anything, you’ll get out as much as you put in.
The first steps I would also recommend (agreeing with previous posters here) include “embracing the metaphor.” Can you see how a metaphorical view of God and many church teachings may be valuable in promoting a moral and harmonious life? I would suggest contemplating this the next time you sit in church; ask yourself the question: “How could what I just heard metaphorically apply to some truth that I can recognize?” In that way you can start to rediscover some value in church toward personal growth.
I would also suggest listening to the “Stages of Faith” podcast. If you’ve already heard it listen to it again, and/or read the book. This goes along with embracing the metaphor. One proven way to finding new meaning in your life is to learn to look at life from a new perspective. What Ray was saying about your orientation fits in here, when you broaden your horizons amazing things can happen. You have already begun the process – in changing your worldview – don’t stunt your potential by clinging to the opposite side of the same coin. You can transcend the black/white thinking – and a new world of technicolor will open up before you. Life is complex. Think about opening up to the possibilities hidden in the paradox. I’m not suggesting “going back” in any sense of the word. I’m saying there is MUCH more to see on the road ahead, if you keep moving, keep journeying.
Hope to hear more from you soon.
Welcome!
Stages of faith:
http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/MormonStories-015-MormonStagesOfFaithPt1.mp3 http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/MormonStories-016-MormonStagesOfFaithPt2.mp3 http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/MormonStories-017-MormonStagesOfFaithPt3.mp3 startallover wrote:I never strayed in my youth. Never did drugs. Never slept with my girlfriends. I went to seminary and all the church activities, always. I wore a white shirt and tie every Sunday. Read the Book of Mormon countless times. Served a mission. Went to BYU. Married in the temple. Served in the church. Voted Republican.
Hey, that’s my story!
startallover wrote:…I am absolutely certain that there is no god.
I love atheists! Welcome, brother.
startallover wrote:I’ve discovered a whole new world outside of the Church. All the science I shunned in my youth… now I can’t get enough of it. … On the other hand, I can’t seem to give up my happy experiences in the church. Even though I am seeing my life through new eyes, I still cherish my mission, my temple marriage, singing primary songs. Those were special times.
Isn’t it great? And yes, just getting through church can be torture, especially at first. Hang in there. It gets better. Best wishes and prayers for your marriage.
startallover wrote:Everyone in my life is Mormon.
…as are you. Welcome to StayLDS.
Quote:I knew everything about Church history. I knew every mistake made by every leader, every contradiction in prophecy, every horrible accusation ever made against the church. But all of this just seemed to bolster my testimony. I was able to find a way for it all to come together perfectly like a complex jigsaw. I knew the big picture, and knew the place of every, little, seemingly errant piece.
I think it is interesting that the same points of data can be looked at differently by believers or nonbelievers. It is what makes me feel there is less certainty of knowing there is a god equally with believing there is no god. As captured in my signature line, truth depends greatly from our point of view, and so I make no ascertains in absolutes for all people, only that for me, I believe in a Christ, because that makes me happy to do so. I respect my Mormon friends as much as I do my Hindu friends…as long as they pursue truth and meaning and good works, they can all be equally right.
Welcome, brother.
Welcome, SOA! We’re a fairly eclectic mix of believers and non-believers and all points in between. What we all share is a desire to see the benefits of remaining in the LDS church after a faith crisis and reminding ourselves of the positives while dealing with the paradoxes, and from the description of your family and friends, it sounds like you fit this description also. Have you suggested to your wife that she check out FacesEast? It’s an online support group for believing spouses of disaffected members. It sounds like she’s pretty anxious about your direction in life and the resources there might help her out.
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