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Had what I felt was a State 5 experience the other day. I will call it a State rather than a Stage, as we agree that Level 3 is also an acceptable State of faith to be in, and the term “Stage” seems to imply a heirarchy which doesn’t exist. I was sitting all detached in Sacrament meeting listening to all the Standard Mormon Answers (SMA’s) to a topic that has vexed me over the years. Almost as if I was an observer of the meeting without actually being present or connected — viewing everyone’s faith and comments as if through a fishbowl. It was the strangest feeling, as if I was an alien observing the behavior of an alien race.
Then I had to teach my Gospel Essentials class. It’s full of new and potential members, and there have been times since my crisis of faith that I’ve wondered if I want to share the gospel with them lest they experience some of the problems and hardship I’ve experienced if they join or stay active.
When I stood in front of the class, I was able to see the faces of so many people that have come up to me in the past and thanked me for how my lessons have uplifed them (the Lord’s doing). How they don’t like to miss my class, how they have come up to me and thanked me for the Spirit they have felt. Some approach me afterwards with questions about their lives. I often ask questions that I think have very clear and powerful answers that are part of my character as a result of reflection and experience, and they sit there blankly not knowing the answer. And then, I share what I think and I can see the ideas resonate with them as they nod their heads….happens often.
I realized — this is my bit of influence for good in the world — Each Sunday I have this attentive class of 10 to 35 people who leave my class strengthened and upflited to do more good in their lives. Last week’s lesson was on Honesty, and I left my class content that I’d helped inspire people to be more honest in their dealings with the people around them. They were taught how to recogize rationalization, how to avoid it, and the blessings and self-esteem that come from honesty. Many shared experiences about how they were honest and how they felt afterwards. Others shared the anxiety the felt from dishonest mistakes they’d made, and the constrasting peace from being pure in heart.
I left feeling more resolve to be honest. It was uplifting, and a reason that goes beyond doctrine, authority, or any other external docrine to myself — it was my opportunity to do good in the world. And that’s important to me.
Thank you for sharing this! It made me reflect on the the amazing support system and wonderful role models for virtuous behavior that are found in the LDS Church. It seems like the Church attracts and produces sincere disciples who are genuinely interested in developing Christlike qualities. I know that for me, in choosing a religion, this was the main thing that drew me to the LDS faith. Even ten years after leaving, I continued to perceive Mormons as being “the most righteous and loving” adherents of any religion. What I feel is even more significant is the fact that LDS youth are so active in the Church and able to maintain purity even in the midst of this wicked and pervese generation. I wish I could participate in your classes!
Thanks for sharing that experience, SD. Being able to observe dispassionately and then reach uplifting enlightenment is a wonderful thing. What I like about that experience is that it isn’t about if you are a better teacher than others, or if you have right answers and others have wrong answers… No, your experience is inspiring because it is about love. I can feel how you love those you observed and interacted with, and you felt loved.
That sounds like a great church day. I long for that. Thanks for your example.
SilentDawning wrote:I was sitting all detached in Sacrament meeting listening to all the Standard Mormon Answers (SMA’s) to a topic that has vexed me over the years. Almost as if I was an observer of the meeting without actually being present or connected — viewing everyone’s faith and comments as if through a fishbowl. It was the strangest feeling, as if I was an alien observing the behavior of an alien race.
Outside observer. Disconnected. Alien watching strange creatures (other humans). These are all classic expressions I often hear, and have felt personally. When I am in that state of mind, that is exactly how I feel — I hear their ideas, and they just drift past me without my feeling any attachment to them. It really is OK for them to work the symbols and stories the way they want. And you can have a totally different understanding. That is just fine.
SilentDawning wrote:I left feeling more resolve to be honest. It was uplifting, and a reason that goes beyond doctrine, authority, or any other external docrine to myself — it was my opportunity to do good in the world. And that’s important to me. I noticed that you did not mention anything in telling your experience about whether the stories and ideas you were teaching were true or false. You did not try to pick them apart to explain how your lesson worked. That did not really matter. You described how it was good, valuable, useful, uplifting, and helpful to the people in the class. It didn’t really matter if the church approved or if God approved of what you taught. It was a good experience. The proof was in the response and their experience. They all experienced something different from your lesson (I assume), and they thanked you for sharing it.
Quote:Outside observer. Disconnected. Alien watching strange creatures (other humans). These are all classic expressions I often hear, and have felt personally. When I am in that state of mind, that is exactly how I feel — I hear their ideas, and they just drift past me without my feeling any attachment to them. It really is OK for them to work the symbols and stories the way they want. And you can have a totally different understanding. That is just fine.
I think it has it origins in disbelief. You don’t believe what’s being said anymore, so you feel distanced from it — distanced, but accepting of it in other people, as if you’re a student of human nature….reflecting on their motives and your own journey that melted your own belief in the principles these people are sharing.
Quote:I noticed that you did not mention anything in telling your experience about whether the stories and ideas you were teaching were true or false. You did not try to pick them apart to explain how your lesson worked. That did not really matter. You described how it was good, valuable, useful, uplifting, and helpful to the people in the class. It didn’t really matter if the church approved or if God approved of what you taught. It was a good experience. The proof was in the response and their experience. They all experienced something different from your lesson (I assume), and they thanked you for sharing it.
I know. Parts of what I taught weren’t consistent with what I currently believe, but it didn’t seem to matter. I advocated total and simple honesty, when I don’t believe in total honesty. I skipped some parts of the lesson that I absolutely couldn’t swallow, but did teach a highly pure and strict idea of honesty, even though I don’t necessarily believe that. When preparing, I felt like NOT teaching the lesson at all because the lesson advocated a simple and extreme concept of honesty that was NOT an expression of my true feelings or character.
However, during preparation, I had this impression that my purpose in that lesson was to influence behavior, not to teach my own version of the truth. By teaching an more absolute version of honesty, I would encourage others to move closer to the center — to a more balanced approach regarding honesty than may currently exist in their own minds. To preach my belief that sometimes, it’s downright silly to be completely honest, was wrong for that group. That was my impression. My goal was to move people to a greater level of honesty, and that was achieved by presenting it in its simplest, black and white form.
Perhaps this was inspiration, I don’t know. But at the end of the lesson my conscience didn’t bother me. What mattered was the influence on behavior.
Sounds wrong when I write that — almost hypocritical. But that was part of the experience. Still doesn’ bother me this time.
I’m not sure I can do that every week though.
SilentDawning wrote:Quote:Outside observer. Disconnected. Alien watching strange creatures (other humans). These are all classic expressions I often hear, and have felt personally. When I am in that state of mind, that is exactly how I feel — I hear their ideas, and they just drift past me without my feeling any attachment to them. It really is OK for them to work the symbols and stories the way they want. And you can have a totally different understanding. That is just fine.
I think it has it origins in disbelief. You don’t believe what’s being said anymore, so you feel distanced from it — distanced, but accepting of it in other people, as if you’re a student of human nature….reflecting on their motives and your own journey that melted your own belief in the principles these people are sharing.
I sort of agree. Perhaps that is how you are experiencing the disconnect, which is totally valid. For me, it is a little too strong to describe my experience of disconnect as disbelief. It is more like different belief — diffbelief?
😆 sort of like disbelief with a lisp.This would be a great hypothetical example:
I am sitting in Sunday School and the teacher is on the lesson about the lesson of Elijah passing the “mantle of authority” to Elisha (which I am actually substitute teaching on Sunday for the regular GD teacher), which shows us so clearly
Most other people in the class, including the teacher, are picturing Thomas S Monson in their mind. They get a good feeling about being safe, knowing someone will tell them the right thing to do.
Me? I on the other hand am also enjoying the lesson, as the disconnected “alien observer,” watching the “humans” experience this moment of spirituality and religion (their experience, but I am watching them). It is very interesting and enlightening to watch. I also believe what the teacher is saying …
BUTI have much different thoughts running in my mind as I experience this metaphorical concept of “prophets leading people.” I would be thinking of all the “prophets” in my life, and how God constantly puts them in my path: -My wife and children, as prophets, who constantly push me to think about serving them and taking care of their needs.
-My sketch pad, that told me something about myself as I was drawing in it a couple of weeks ago.
-A poet that I read recently, that made me think about something new
-My intuition (or subconscious or “the Spirit” whatever you want to label it), that revealed new insights when I was falling asleep last night, while I was calming my mind and slowing down the noise in my mind.
-My Bishop that I met with together with my wife a couple weeks ago, who was actually very inspired in his approach to talking to my wife, and making her feel more at ease about people at Church.
-Oh yeah … and there’s that guy named Thomas S. Monson. He is pretty cool to listen to sometimes. Even if what he says sometimes isn’t useful in my personal journey, that in itself is a new piece of valuable information to me.
None of these prophets lead me astray. They all lead me on new adventures, new hero quests.
Does that make sense? I am listening to the lesson, but I am not attached to or dependent upon what other people are experiencing as we all talk about the same thing. We are all talking about the authority of prophets in our life, but I am not thinking about what they are thinking about. That’s fine with me. Its better that way. And it isn’t that I disbelieve what is being said. I believe differently.
I think we’re talking about the same thing. You don’t believe in the Thomas S. Monson concept the way the rest of the Church does, but you believe in the symbol of a prophet as a purveyor of truth that is meaningful to you. You also believe in a host of other meanings regarding the word prophet. I think this DOES lead to detachment, as one knows they are thinking about prophets in ways that people wouldn’t accept if the concept was explained to them over the pulpit.
Fwiw, I agree with the idea of a bit of a personal disconnect – but I think Brian is saying that there needn’t be a “communal disconnect” simply because there is a “doctrinal / belief / paradigm / perception disconnect”. Iow, going back to my own framing that makes sense to me, I can be heterodox but still orthoprax – seeing things from my kite way out in the universe somewhere while still having my string firmly anchored in the community. I’m at peace with my disconnect largely because it provides freedom to explore without removing the security of my community and loved ones. I don’t grab others who are afraid of heights and traumatize them just to have company as I fly. That would be incredibly destructive and selfish. I fly around and look for others who are trying to learn to fly where I fly or who already are flying there – and I find lots of them all around me when I really open my eyes and ears and mind and heart.
I really believe the in the principle of “she who has ears to hear / eyes to see / hearts to feel / minds to understand / spirits to sense” . . .
Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw, I agree with the idea of a bit of a personal disconnect – but I think Brian is saying that there needn’t be a “communal disconnect” simply because there is a “doctrinal / belief / paradigm / perception disconnect”. Iow, going back to my own framing that makes sense to me, I can be heterodox but still orthoprax – seeing things from my kite way out in the universe somewhere while still having my string firmly anchored in the community.
For me it’s a disconnect with the community. It’s hard to feel like an alien and be part of the community at the same time.
I understand, SD. I really do feel like an alien in some meetings. Old-Timer wrote:I understand, SD. I really do feel like an alien in some meetings.
At least it’s only in meetings – and not your entire family life!
I sometimes feel like I know more than the teachers, so I get disconnected. I think it’s wrong for me to think that because I should be listening and feeling for the Spirit of Truth in the subject that I think I know more about. My personal pride makes me disconnect. I pondered and prayed that the Lord would show others what I had learned only to be told to stand back and watch. I learned that I was nothing special and everyone else knew a whole bunch too. We’re all on this journey together and experience God and Divinity from different angles sometimes, and when God reaches out to touch us, sometimes it’s with a different finger for me and a different finger for you.
I’m glad you enjoyed your “State 5.” I call that being touched. The goal is learning to be available for the back rub.
cwald wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I understand, SD. I really do feel like an alien in some meetings.
At least it’s only in meetings – and not your entire family life!
Partly in my family life I feel like a bit of an alient — I teach my children about tithing when I’m not fully committed to it myself. Fortunately, there’s no structured lesson manual for Family Home Evening, so I can based the lessons on topics like positive thinking and other things that aren’t doctrinal or problematic. So, for the most part, my family life is authentic.
I think that’s one way out of the angst from Church, is to focus on the family life and the benefits of the Church to that — there are many…..as well as the mostly full control my wife and I have over that family life.
Just saw this thread again and want to add one thing: Feeling like an alien is hardest for those who didn’t feel like an alien for most of their lives.
I have an advantage in a real way, since I’ve felt like an alien pretty much my entire life – and my “alien-ness” is related directly to how I view and interpret history, doctrine, scripture, etc. One of the reasons I can view myself as orthodox even though I have so many heterodox beliefs is that I’ve been dealing with that paradox for so long that it now simply is part of how I view my own condition of “I am”.
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