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August 9, 2010 at 7:39 pm #205260
Anonymous
GuestNot sure I can get all my thoughts clear here. I think Mormonism creates more self-confidence in its adherents than most other faiths, for a few reasons: 1 –
reliance on the Spirit is a lot like “reliance on intuition”– we are systematically taught that we should trust our inner voice, er, the still small voice. Either way, outcome is pretty similar. Straying into arrogance: those who fail to consider the impact of their own wishes on how they perceive “the Spirit.” 2 –
literal children of God + theosis. We are children of God, and we believe it in a much more literal and personal way than others who say it. Obviously, this elevates those of us who think it. Straying into arrogance: those who are self-righteous or compare themselves to others. 3 –
plan of salvation. Every kingdom is going to be a reward. Nobody but the very very few are truly worthy of something that is eternal punishment / hell (outer darkness). People will go where they will be most comfortable based on the person they’ve become. Straying into arrogance: see #2, and add to it a disdain for non-LDS views, mentally relegating them to lesser kingdoms, etc. Coveting one’s future reward. 4 –
pre-mortal valiance. We were in the top 2/3 of spirits, so we must be pretty awesome. Straying into arrogance: this generation were all generals, the idea that those born in the church are better than those born outside of it, any ideas of pre-mortal hierarchy of valiance (other than the 2/3 argument). 5 –
personal accountability focus. There’s a strong focus on personal accountability & preparation (provident living). Straying into arrogance: equating one’s wealth with one’s righteousness; thinking we deserve better than others because we [insert self-serving interpretation of commandment]. In short, I think these are things that are great strengths of Mormonism, that are sometimes overplayed, making them weaknesses. What do you think? But self-confidence also breeds success, and in general, Mormons are pretty successful compared to other sects of Christians. So the strengths are helpful in and of themselves.
August 9, 2010 at 10:00 pm #233820Anonymous
GuestThe three kingdoms thing is not entirely negative, it’s not like heaven or hell alone, and it does allow decent people to be saved, who would perish in other forms of Christianity. I believe that there is some literal truth in the idea of Apostasy (look at the violent religious history of medieval Europe!), but that it can also lead to arrogance in dealing with other churches.
The Melchizedek Priesthood is a great thing in someways, but also creates a two tier church, and excludes women.
The family business is good for raising children in a loving environment, but also puts too much pressure on folk to be perfect.
August 10, 2010 at 3:50 pm #233821Anonymous
GuestI haven’t seen a lot of arrogance stemming from those particular aspects of our religion. Yes, I’ve seen arrogance stemming from wealth, but I think that’s due to the wealth itself rather than any perceived righteousness on the part of the wealthy person. I have seen arrogance stem from the fact that “I’m a returned missionary, married in the temple, and have held a lot of important church callings an hold a current temple recommend, and all my sons served missions and my daughters are all married in the temple”. But not a lot of that in the middle class Wards I’ve belonged to — in some of the wealthy wards,yes.
Most of the time, it seems to stem from the jobs the people hold, and their resulting wealth. Also, among some there may well be a gaping hole in their self-esteem so they go broadcasting their wealth to everyone. Others simply lack awareness of the fact that sharing successes with others out of a desire to simply share one’s life can make other people believe the person is arrogant. My daughter learned that principle this week. She shared some success with someone who also had strivings in the same direction as her success. This led to the perception my daughter thought she was better than this other person. My daughter was upset about it, and asked me “how do you share your fine moments and successes with others without being labelled as arrogant?”. I thought that was an intelligent question from an 11 year-old. My response — you share those successes only with your close family, your journal, and maybe a really good friend. (Big maybe on the last one if that friend isn’t successful in the area of your success, and wants to be).
Another source of arrogance I’ve seen stems from a willingness to accept stereotypes as indicator of worth. For example, one person I know greedily assimilates stereotypes and categorizations and seeks them out when trying to make a decison about something. He was planning to go back to school and greedily assimilated everything I had to say about various schools and their reputations. He also has shown tendencies to categorize people regarding their wealth and status, by making comments such as “you want to live in [subdivision x]” — as if all these external trappings define a person’s worth.
August 11, 2010 at 4:43 am #233822Anonymous
Guest…another aspect Hawkgrrrl is how our youth are told (as I was when I was young) that the most choice spirits were reserved for these last days, so kids grow up believing they are special, and often better than their peers at school. It can be a blessing because the youth can benefit from more confidence in themselves, which they need as much of that as they can get.
August 11, 2010 at 6:44 am #233823Anonymous
GuestI sense that alot of the arrogance surrounds the concept of “chosen people”. The same issues you brought up are relevant to Jews. As an ethnic group, Jews tend to overachieve and skew per capita statistical categories. So, there must be something to the firmly held belief of being “chosen”. August 11, 2010 at 2:10 pm #233824Anonymous
GuestHeber13 wrote:the most choice spirits were reserved
Whenever I hear “choice spirits” or “choice people,” I have this mental association with a marketing phrase “choice cuts of meat.”
Are the spirits reserved for the last days all tasty and juicy?
😈 Sorry … Ignore my distractions from the real topic being discussed.
August 11, 2010 at 3:17 pm #233825Anonymous
Guest“Religions are a form of one-upmanship, because they depend upon separating the ‘saved’ from the ‘damned,’ the true believers from the heretics, the in-group from the out-group. … religions harden into institutions that must command loyalty, be defended and kept “pure,’ and – because all belief is fervent hope, and thus a cover-up for doubt and uncertainty – religions must make converts. The more people who agree with us, the less nagging insecurity about our position.” – Alan Watts – ‘The Book’ I’m not saying I agree with all of this, but it’s an interesting thought.
August 11, 2010 at 5:30 pm #233826Anonymous
Guestsilentstruggle wrote:“Religions are a form of one-upmanship, because they depend upon separating the ‘saved’ from the ‘damned,’ the true believers from the heretics, the in-group from the out-group
I agree with this observation in general. It turns into arrogance (pride) at times, but even among the humble religious, it will still happen. Organized religions will general go this route because the vast majority of religions (at least western religions) operate organizationally at a Fowler Stage 3 style. Most of the adherents are Stage 3 – style believers.
The reason this is a natural expression is that one of the key characteristics of Stage 3 is the fomulation of a “story of stories.” Mormons, for example, are a group of people with the “truth” (a story), but as we become more aware of the world and see that there are lots and lots of people not in our group (lots of other stories of faith), we have to come up with an explanation — the story of all the stories. So in Mormonism we see the outsiders as those who suffer from the effects of the apostasy, and if they do not convert when they hear our story, or are members who disagree, then those people are being deceived by Satan, led astray. We define the in-group and out-group that way.
August 11, 2010 at 7:12 pm #233827Anonymous
GuestHowever, our ultimate theology posits that all will be saved and resurrected and receive a degree of glory. Even Sons of Perdition are resurrected and, in that way, are more advanced than Lucifer – the deceiving spirit. Thus, in Mormonism, nobody really gets “punished” for being born – made worse in the end than if they hadn’t been born. Finally, the specific reward isn’t tied to clear, objective rules – since God, the Father, who alone sees the heart, is the ultimate Judge and Assigner – and each person is represented in counsel, if you will, by God, the Son, who argues for mercy to whatever extent possible. The distinction within Mormonism is between the level of the blessed state, if you will – unlike pretty much every other Christian construct and most theological constructs.
It still fits the separation paradigm, but it’s a much more benign fit than elsewhere.
August 12, 2010 at 9:58 pm #233828Anonymous
GuestBrian Johnston wrote:Heber13 wrote:the most choice spirits were reserved
Whenever I hear “choice spirits” or “choice people,” I have this mental association with a marketing phrase “choice cuts of meat.”
Are the spirits reserved for the last days all tasty and juicy?
😈 Sorry … Ignore my distractions from the real topic being discussed.
Oh man, you crack me up.
😆 I’ve had a similar issue though with the whole shepherd/sheep thing. I grew up on a farm, more or less, we had sheep and goats. When I hear the story of the sheep and goats, I sympathize with the goats, because they’re often much brighter than sheep, and have more of a character! Also, when I hear about the “shepherd” in the New Testament, I don’t just think of him saving the lost sheep, or even milking them, I think of him driving them down to the slaughterhouse as well!
August 12, 2010 at 10:15 pm #233829Anonymous
GuestDoes anyone but me identify with Laman and Lemuel?
August 13, 2010 at 1:38 pm #233830Anonymous
GuestI think there are FAR more Lamans and Lemuels in the world than Nephis – at the very least in the sense that “God maketh no such things (panoramic visions of eternity) known unto [them]”. Nephi comes across as a wonderful person who also happened to be a spoiled brat in his early years at least – and perhaps even bi-polar. I’m not sure Laman and Lemuel weren’t normal, decent blokes in their pre-flight lives. I also see Lehi a bit differently than many people, and I think I understand Laman’s and Lemuel’s reaction toward Nephi as much more natural and perhaps unavoidable than most people do. Iow, I don’t condemn them at all for how they reacted in their own situation. I don’t think I “relate” to them, necessarily, but I am inclined to be very charitable toward them – especially since stories told in retrospect, explicitly to explain and justify separation and warfare, tend to be exaggerated. (For example, if they really did want to kill Nephi, they had tons of opportunities and were really bad at it.)
Hindsight isn’t 20/20 – especially when quite a lot of time has passed. Our memories tend to construct what we want to remember – which is why even a “correct” book doens’t have to be unbiased and totally “accurate”.
August 13, 2010 at 3:16 pm #233831Anonymous
Guestsomething i think you left out: living in The Promised Land. maybe this ties into being “Gods chosen people”? but with US members of the LDS church you end with American Exceptionalism, all tied together with Only the Righteous Can Inhabit The Promised Land, the Land that is Choice Above All Others. Just my personal experience talking, but I have come across plenty of USA members who seem to think they are superior to non USA members (let alone non USA, non-members) just by virtue of being born in America. Or at least, North America, for some reason i don’t think they count anyone born in South or Central America as still being in the Promised Land, even though thats where most of them would speculate Nephi landed. I once had a “discussion” with a TBM sister about a church policy that i think should be changed. I insisted it was bad policy and could be changed easily since it wasn’t doctrine. i told her that in the UK, Mexico and other countries this policy doesn’t exist, so there’s no reason it should exist here. She insisted that in America we’re held to a higher standard, that we’re supposed to be a “light on the hill” or something. that somehow being LDS in the US should mean something different than being LDS anywhere else in the world. i was baffled, and had no idea what to say to her. but it was quite arrogant, and i don’t think she’s alone in thinking this way.
August 13, 2010 at 10:29 pm #233832Anonymous
GuestI’ve always felt that the portrayal of Laman and Lemuel is a bit one sided. They saw Nephi as an upstart, and possibly a bit cheeky. -
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