Problems with Authority

…A big part of my faith crisis has to do with my lack of desire to listen to any authority other than myself and God…Am I just going through the teenage rebellion I never had or is there an adult rebellion stage we may call a mid-life crisis or Stage 4 Fowlers?

Thoughts?

Personally, I think the level of unquestioning obedience to authority among members is the real problem here because too many active TBMs have been too nice for their own good for so long that it has allowed the Church to build up this huge list of unreasonable demands. That’s why I think more active members should rebel and complain loudly to their bishop at least and not be so afraid of saying no but the problem is that too many of the ones that actually do rebel just become completely inactive or resign basically leaving behind mostly obedient followers. As a result, there isn’t enough feedback that ever gets back to the leadership that maybe some of this structure has gotten out of hand and is too much of an unnecessary burden to realistically expect out of people because they are so accustomed to having most of the remaining members they see typically do what they are told without much resistance.

I need to think about this some more and post something thoughtful, but my initial response is one of sympathy for your feelings.

Once I opened the door that they might just be men, albeit generally very good men, then I started realizing how manipulative much of what we are told is. This came to light for me as I read one of the books about the FLDS, and how they manipulate their people. The degree is perhaps different, but the tools are the same ones used in the LDS church; namely, guilt, social pressure, fear of damnation, personification of God through the leaders, etc. . . and it starts from the very beginning when we are tiny children.

Don’t take my thoughts as the full view though; I have issues.

I think it’s interesting that Joseph Smith was the example of ultimate religious rebellion in his time – and he started, or if you prefer, God told him that none of the churches were correct and he needed to do something different — now 190 years later it seems to me that we have come full circle again where folks (LDS folks) are going to HAVE to rebel if they want to learn “truth” and fulfill their spiritual potential — and the church, in many instances will punish them for doing so just like they did to JS. IMO, the LDS church structure and organization is very similar to what Joseph Smith rebelled against. IMO, there is no way that JS would have made it in the LDS church today. No chance!

I also think one must remember that many of the same people who LDS “worship” as heroes, are actually nothing but free-thinking rebels. Think of Calvin, Martin, etc. and even the Founding Fathers. That Founding Fathers were TRAITORS! TRAITORS! These folks were VERY rebellious to the cultural norm of their time, and yet we put them on a pedestal. How many of us here in this forum will be put up on a pedestal in our branches and wards if they knew just how “rebellious” we really were?

Yes I agree so often we think it was great that someone else rebelled yet in modern day it is considered apostasy. I am convinced the whole obedience thing is more than a benign belief but is damaging. It keeps individuals in a box that prevents them from experiencing so many wonderful things about this life. If your whole existence revolvess around doing and saying what someone else says is correct you are diminished. Even if that person has good intentions and it does not mean they are correct. Also many terrible individuals have gained control and influence over others to disastrous results. Yet those followers believed in them to the bitter end.

In this I am not advocating rebellion in all things. You must respect leaders for their position and support them in wise decisions. But you also have the responsibility to decent when you feel they are causing harm. It can be a fine line to walk, but it is our responsibility as Gods children to make those decisions for ourselves. Sure you will get some nut cases that will disagree with everything but that is the price we pay to be free thinkers. Trying to get everyone to conform to one way of doing something was not Christ’s plan as I recall. It was Satan who wanted to compel everyone to do as he said.

The mantra of follow the prophet no matter what needs to be removed from all teaching materials. It should be more like respect the prophet.

I can respect that view point SD

I don’t necessarily see it that way personally. In life we are able to “choose” whose tutalage we are under. We don’t like so and so advice we can always get different friends or a different job. You had the choice to work under “Dad.’

Where is that choice in the church?

In the church, you have NO say in who is your “authority” (I don’t want anyone telling me that raising your hand to sustain a leader in sacrament meeting is a “choice” either. I don’t need it today.) In reality, the average lay member has almost no say in anything.

Look, I like what you said SD. I’m happy for you. I’m not at that place. I see the church (this all my opinion) as an ultra-authoritarian organization that has evolved into a CULTURE that’s adopted the very plan that “satan’ proposed in the Sunday school manual. “You will believe, think and act in this manner. If you don’t you will no longer be considered an integral part of the religion (temple worship, high callings etc) and if you complain about it, there is a chance that you will be kicked out altogether. And oh yeah – we’re making temple worship required for exaltation, which means your local priesthood in affect has your salvation in their hands.”

THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME AT THIS TIME.

I can live with organization within each religion – I get the necessity of it. I just don’t believe it personally. A religious body of 13 mil has to have organization and rules. Fine – It just doesn’t work for me. I don’t think ANyONE has control over another’s “salvation”. I don’t think that is what god is all about — yet I sometimes think the way our culture approaches authority, we miss that boat.

I can respect that view point SD

I don’t necessarily see it that way personally. In life we are able to “choose” whose tutalage we are under. We don’t like so and so advice we can always get different friends or a different job. You had the choice to work under “Dad.’

In a way, I did have a choice to work for my Dad — I could work for my Dad, or be unemployed, or take some kind of a retail job since that was all I was really qualified for. It wasn’t much of a choice at the time. His was the best one of the table. Same with my full-time job now. I get a new boss once every couple years — and they all vary in how much I like being under their tutelage. I’ve wanted to leave because of the misuse of authority in my job, but the alternatives were lower pay, longer commutes, and possibly someone just as bad or worse than my current employer to report to. Possibly better, but unknown, and given all the other risks, it was easier to learn to perform and be happy in spite of their misuse of authority. Eventually, there was one alterantive — an international move that was a LOT harder than staying with my current employer. I chose that one and then lost a LOT of money in the process. So, I don’t think alternative choices are all that many in real life either.

Where is that choice in the church?

To stay active, you can move to get a new leader, which is easy if you’re renting. Or, you can pick which member of the Bishopric you want to do your interview with if it’s a repeat temple recommend interview and not a re-instatement. You can also choose to fellowship with EQ or HP in some situations if you’re an elder but getting up there in years. You can always refuse callings if you have to work under someone you can do without. I’m seeing lots of choice right now.

In the church, you have NO say in who is your “authority” (I don’t want anyone telling me that raising your hand to sustain a leader in sacrament meeting is a “choice” either. I don’t need it today.) In reality, the average lay member has almost no say in anything.

I think that from a big picture doctrinal standpoint that is true. However, judging by all the frustration I felt in being a local priesthood leader, members have pretty wide latitude in whether they actually get with the gospel program on a personal level. Your posts above indicate that you have been able to stay a member in spite of not adopting many different values and positions that are given to us in the gospel.

Sure, leaders can pull recommends and such, but it’s partly on the basis of the way one presents themself. I realize from listening to the podcasts on this site that the WORST thing you can do to put yourself under serious tutelage is to broadcast and grandstand any issues one might have with the Church. This will only force the leaders to bring out their tutelage to bring you in line. If you can find your own reasons for living the gospel, and answer the questions right based on these altenate, but hearfelt reasons, then you’re fine.

For example, “Are you a full tithe payer”. I was thinking about this, and it dawned on me that I lost the equivalent of a couple years of income just on buying house before the crash. That loss I’ll bring into income and not pay any tithing for a couple years. So, although I had income from my job, that has been offset by a loss on real estate investment. So, I’ll say yes and keep my recommend. No one is going to delve THAT deeply into my financial affairs to make their own arbitrary judgment about whether it’s correct unless I start grandstanding my disagreement with the Church buying a mall and a huge real estate development locally.

Look, I like what you said SD. I’m happy for you. I’m not at that place. I see the church (this all my opinion) as an ultra-authoritarian organization that has evolved into a CULTURE that’s adopted the very plan that “satan’ proposed in the Sunday school manual. “You will believe, think and act in this manner. If you don’t you will no longer be considered an integral part of the religion (temple worship, high callings etc) and if you complain about it, there is a chance that you will be kicked out altogether. And oh yeah – we’re making temple worship required for exaltation, which means your local priesthood in affect has your salvation in their hands.”

THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME AT THIS TIME.

It doesn’t work for me when I think of it in those terms either. Like you, I have trouble merging divinity with the Church organization. I’ve never believed the leaders are mouthpieces of God and that it all represents God’s will — their behavior has led me to that conclusion. However, I do see the benefits to my family, to myself, and to being involved, so I’m going to stay with it in spite of those warts. Also, I have some beautiful, good-hearted children who I think will do better in the LDS Church than anywhere else. So, I’m going to stick with the program for their sake at a minimum.

My Dad was a high profile leader in a protestant Church when we grew up. I remember how upset he was with the minister over a camp-out he planned. I don’t remember the nature of the disagreement,but it really bothered my Dad badly. I’ve often reflected on how I’ll probably have the same angst elsewhere over different issues, with different leaders if I leave the LDS Church.

My biggest challenge is how to outwardly live the principles without being a hypocrite — or a whitened sepulchre. It means a search for reasons that are deeply meaningful and sincere, and that remove the angst. I’ve found a couple reasons so far that have helped ease the pain, and they mean a lot to me…..but that is the subject of a different thread.

I can live with organization within each religion – I get the necessity of it. I just don’t believe it personally. A religious body of 13 mil has to have organization and rules. Fine – It just doesn’t work for me. I don’t think ANyONE has control over another’s “salvation”. I don’t think that is what god is all about — yet I sometimes think the way our culture approaches authority, we miss that boat.

I ‘m starting to question the same thing. I do wonder if God will actually base my eternal salvation on my activity in the Church. However, I do see the Church bringing out many good things in my wife and children, and for that reason, I’m staying. It points them in the right direction behaviorally.

When I said I thought that more active members should rebel and complain to their bishop what I meant was simply that they shouldn’t feel so obligated to fulfill callings they can’t stand or pay more tithing than they feel comfortable with or that if they want to have a few drinks once in a while they shouldn’t feel like they can’t go to Church anymore because they have broken the sacred TBM tradition. Certainly, I don’t think there is any need to make any big show of defiance that will offend other members I just don’t think it would hurt anything for members to be a little more assertive in many cases.

Do you think that being assertivein these ways will effect change?

In this case, I really don’t think that just going along with all of these rules and responsibilities just to conform and fit in as much as possible will really do the Church and average members any real favors over the long run. As far as I’m concerned, some of these expectations really are excessive and unnecessary but the Church is never going to realize this as long as the majority of active members just put up with all this while most of the members that can’t take it anymore typically just bow out completely and stay away from Church without really providing much feedback. To me it looks like an un-healthy and unbalanced system that is currently grinding up members and spitting them out at an unacceptable rate mostly due to the expectations that the level of commitment needs to be all-or-nothing.

If all the active members went to Church an demonstrated against say, a bit of alcohol now and then, I can imagine what would happen. At a minimum, the STake would get involved and reprimand everyone. Some might even be brought up before a council for apostasy….I don’t see that working….although I’d love to see a more bottom-up way of making decisions in the Church.

I totally get what DA is talking about. Let me give you a real example from my own life.

Over a year ago I was diagnosed with a form of Rheumatoid Arthritis. It was painful and debilitating and after much anguish I decided to ask to be released from every calling I had (except VT). I felt that I needed a long break from the responsibilities etc. My husband approached our bishop and explained the situation. My bishop didn’t want to release me. He offered me a 2 month leave of absence type situation. My husband was respectful but assertive and let him know that I needed the burden lifted completely for a longtime perhaps even a year. He released me.

Fast forward 6 months. The bishop calls my husband to see if I’m ready for a calling yet. After some thought we both agreed that I wasn’t ready. My bishop respected that.

Fast forward 1 year. My bishop sees us in the hall and asks to speak to us in private. He said that they had a little job for me and and wondered if I felt ready. (I kind of knew this was coming because the primary pianist let me know that she needed a go to girl on the Sundays that she worked and that the Primary Presidency was considering asking me. I had thought about it and since I was managing my illness well and felt comfortable with the half-time job, I had decided that I would accept the calling if asked.) I told my bishop that I was ready but that I needed to be a part of the decision on what type of calling I would accept. He immediately agreed to the arrangement but then quickly caught himself and said, “But that’s not how we do things around here.” I said, “that is how I must do things now.” He was pleasant and issued the call of part-time primary pianist.

So when Devilsadvocate, advocates being more assertive I understand what he is saying. He’s not talking about fighting for a change in the Word of Wisdom. I believe he is talking about respectfully setting healthy boundaries in regards to our activity within the church.

Am I getting what you are saying DA?

I