Tradition

I think there is an unfortunate tendency these days to reject tradition wholesale. What we should be doing is working out which traditions are worth keeping.

I was watching Fiddler on the Roof today and have been thinking on one of the lines.

Tevye says introducing the song “Tradition” and speaking of the many Jewish traditions like keeping the head covered and wearing a prayer shawl ,

“You may ask, ‘How did the tradition get started?’ I’ll tell you… I don’t know. But it’s a tradition! And because of our traditions, every one of us knows who he is and what God expects him to do.”

I think I found some insight into why the traditions of the LDS church (especially the doctrinal ones) are so earnestly clung to. The average TBM doesn’t necessarily know when and where these traditions started, and they don’t care. They know who they are and what God expects of them. This could be a reason people cling to ritualism and rules that don’t always make sense.

This could also be why as I have come to doubt these rules and rituals I’ve had a complete identity crisis.

Any thoughts?

If you can just accept traditions for what they are — then they have no power over you. For example, the “tradition” that you take the sacrament with your right hand. If you acknowledge that it’s simply something a leader invented at some point, potentially making it an extension of raising your right arm to the square, or symbolic of goodness or rightness, but it really has no practical benefit, then you can do it without feeling any angst about it. It’s just a ritual. (In fact, when you reflect on the fact that in some cultures you use your right hand to eat because the left hand is used for reaching operations involved in going to the bathroom, the whole thing becomes kind of amusing).

Look at it the same way that you look at wooden clogs in the Dutch culture, turbans in the INdian culture, or the fact that a sofa is called a chesterfield in Canada. They are simply somewhat arbitrarily chosen symbols that have taken on meaning to their adherents. You can choose to attach meaning to them if you want, or you can ignore them. I personally abide by them because I feel its respectful of the culture to do so, just as it’s respectful to stand and sing the national anthem when in a friendly foreign country.

“You may ask, ‘How did the tradition get started?’ I’ll tell you… I don’t know. But it’s a tradition! And because of our traditions, every one of us knows who he is and what God expects him to do.”

The average TBM doesn’t necessarily know when and where these traditions started, and they don’t care. They know who they are and what God expects of them. This could be a reason people cling to ritualism and rules that don’t always make sense…This could also be why as I have come to doubt these rules and rituals I’ve had a complete identity crisis.

…Perhaps the easiest example of tradition and culture — the WofW. I don’t believe for a second it is a commandment from god. I believe it is a tradition which has become a part of the culture.

I agree with cwald, the cultural tradition that stands out the most to me is the Word of Wisdom. This tradition is so deeply ingrained in many members’ minds that to them it really is part of their identity as practicing Mormons. It is strange to me to see the way this has developed into such an important thing to people when I follow the history of it.

The original revelation was given as basically a suggestion “not by commandment or constraint” and it specifically says that barley is good for making mild drinks (beer?). But then they made it a temple requirement and really started emphasizing this more to the point that now people think this is almost what it really means to be Mormon. It has reached the point where some TBMs basically want to re-write the Bible to try to claim that Jesus never drank wine because it was supposedly unfermented grape juice instead.

If everything really worked the way they claim and these rules are really half as important to God as they seem to think then I would expect to see another revelation in D&C by Heber J. Grant explaining all of this in a more specific way. As far as I’m concerned, it is purely a corrupt tradition of men that mostly serves the purpose (intentionally or not) of really separating the active and obedient TBMs from all the Jack Mormons and non-Mormons in a cult-like and un-Christian way. Personally, I think the right thing to do would simply be to change it back to a suggestion but because it’s the tradition they are familiar with they think this is just the way things are supposed to be and that it can’t ever be changed.

Thanks DA, don’t want this to become a WoW thread Alice – just using it as one example.

Another reason I’m going to stick it out with many of the commandments and with activity is the tendency for generations to backslide. If I become Liberal in my practice of Mormonism, then this will most likely encourage my children to take an even more LIberal stance than I have taken — because the tendency is for mankind to backslide.

In Fiddler on the Roof, the main character slowly relaxes his emphasis on tradition until finally, his last daughter does the unthinkable — she marries a Christian, completely rejecting their heritage and all his hopes for his daughter.

Okay – I think fiddler is a great movie and has some great spiritual messages for those who search for them. What is the message from movie suppose to be? I don’t remember feeling like the daughter was a bad person for her decisions, in fact I was happy for her when she choose to follow her own pathway. Do we really believe that what the youngest daughter did was “bad” or a “sin?” Seriously, was/is it such a big deal for the Jewish girl to marry a christian boy?

Yes, she abandons her fathers traditions, but I think even in the end the Father realized each of his children have to find their own pathway. I think, at least from my impression, the father, and especially the mother, did not lament in the end that their child was “going to hell’ for choosing that pathway?

Am I missing something from the movie.

Yes, she abandons her fathers traditions, but I think even in the end the Father realized each of his children have to find their own pathway. I think, at least from my impression, the father, and especially the mother, did not lament in the end that their child was “going to hell’ for choosing that pathway?

Am I missing something from the movie.

When I mentioned backsliding etcetera, I meant int the context of clean-living. In Fiddler it was about holding onto traditional Jewish values, but I’m talking about the clean living habits that keep our children safe.

For example, if I start vocalizing all my concerns about the Church in front of my children, or showing lukewarm attitudes about say, the WoW, then my children may well do the same, and even go further left, perhaps taking up excessive drinking, etcetera as teenagers eventually. Or if I start taking them out for music events on Sundays, for example, they might start believing Church isn’t important at all and stop going when they have more choice in the matter. I think you have to be further “right” in living the gospel than you want your children to be.

I saw how moving left was deteriorating my kids interest in spirituality a year ago. I stayed home out of protest about something I was disturbed about at Church for a couple months, and my kids started refusing to go to Church because they wanted to stay home with Dad. That straightened me up significantly because I saw how the extent to which I live certain commandments/principles impacts my children.

I see the same principle taught in Fiddler. The further left the father moved, the further left his children went. The fact that they started rejecting their Jewish ways isn’t the point for me, it was the fact that they rejected something his father valued and wanted for his family. IN my case, clean living, belief in God, a life centered on spirituality etcetera. For now, I still believe the Church is the best place to get all that, so I don’t want to move my kids too far left by being too far left myself.

Why do you think the father was moving “left”? AND – if he truely was, is that REALLY a bad thing? AND – yes, the kids may have broke the traditions of the family, but I’m guessing, just like you and I, Tevye really wanted the same thing from his kids, and just becuase one married an unorthodox Jew and one married a christian, doesn’t mean they gave up “clean living, belief in God and a life centered on spirituality.”

I think we’re confusing the values of the father, with the values of Mormonism here. I don’t think the last daughter was any less clean because she married a Christian. I’m using Fiddler as an analogy. Replace the story of Fiddler with this — instead of the issue being who you let your daughter marry, consider the issue to be how much alcohol you drink. I’m not criticizing the final daughter as somehow abandoning a clean life. I”m using her abandonment of her father’s tradition of marrying within the faith as a concept, an analogy for turning against things fathers value — ANYTHING — he values. The more you lighten up on your standards, the more the tendency for your children to lighten up their standards. Better to be slightly more extreme in your practice of that habit you want to pass on to your children; then they might hit the mean.

Therefore, I will live the WoW because I think it helps people avoid addictions and situations where they lose their virginity, and for the most part, is good for one’s health. I will also set the example of going to Church every week because if I go once a month, my kids will probably go only once every two months. I’ll preach abstinance from sex before marriage, along with petting and all the other heavy stuff; perhaps my kids will get through teens and YA years with only some heavy kissing and reject opportunities for pre-marital intimacy.

I knew woman who was a potty-mouth. She told us she taught her children that swearing was OK, but you don’t do it to your grandmother, your teacher, or your boss. Wow. When the kids get used to swearing in every day life, you can bet they will probably swear at their boss. If she taught swearing was bad in any context, the kids might end up swearing among their friends, and never even consider it in front of their boss….being further into the extreme than you want your kids to be is one way to help them land approximately where you’d hope they might be.

I think this a TBM thought — if one is not a devout mormon, than they must not have as good of a life, and what they do have in regards to “clean living, belief in God and a life centered on spirituality” is inferior to ours.

That’s not my point. My point is that in living life as a devout Mormon, I at least set a more extreme example than I would hope for, in the lives of my children.

For example, I will preach abstinance from sex before marriage, as well as abstinance from petting and all other stuff. Why all this extremism compared to contemporary standards? Because I hope my children will get through their adolescent and young adult years without experiencing the pitfalls of sexual promiscuity. If they know both their Mom and Dad expects abstinance until marriage, that gives a pretty good example and standard for their super-ego to look to when they themselves are tempted. They might fall into heavy-petting and then feel its wrong afterwards and decide to leave it all alone until marriage. KNowing our own expectations I hope will be a strong motivator to NOT slip into full-blown promiscuity as teens and YA’s. IF I adopted a stance that is less than abstinance until marriage, they would proably embrace that stance without any kind of self-governance, and potentially stray into actual intercourse….those urges are just so powerful, the tendency is for the next generation to move further “south” (I avoid the word left because of its political innuendo).

Why is it, that just because I may not follow the “traditions of my fathers”, that I’m considered “left?” Why is it, that in Southern Idaho, where I grew up, I am considered a left wing maniac, yet here in Oregon amoung my colleagues and friends, I’m considered a right wing “conservative”? Do you see what I am saying? Why is it if someone decides the traditions are unnecessary and don’t work, they are labeled a “liberal” which is considered a insult in the mormon religion. (perhaps I am liberal in the effect that I like change and believe in “liberty” and free agency – I am a Libertarian )

I think my use of the term left was wrong, given your reaction here. I mean “turn away from [insert your own personal value here] that [you] think is important”. For you it might mean teaching 10 hours of service a week is desireable. For others it might mean that scripture reading an hour a day is important. For me it’s the basic clean living commandments that attracted me to Mormonism in the first place.

I see setting expectations and values it as my last bastion of freedom in this life — to at least have hopes for my children to live certain bedrock principles, to create the culture I want in my own family, and to raise them the way I would hope they would turn out. If they go against those principles, I’ll be disappointed. Now, I also realize they will make their own choices, and they are likely to be different than mine, for sure., but at least one can point a direction.

But what if one found a pathway that may work better than the TBM mormon path? Should they not help their kids down that pathway?

If there’s one out there, I hope they find it. I don’t know where it is, and this Mormonism concept is the best I’ve found.

I think the mormon church does a decent job training children to live a “clean life” – but I also think they hinder individuals actually, and can do a lot harm to those who truly seek and need something different. ( the all or nothing expectation that 15% of us just can’t accept and live with)

Only 15%? I think it’s far higher than that — way higher!!! For example, only 30% of my ward is active, and only a percent of that group are actually temple recommend holders. And the percent of that group that are ACTUALLY KEEPING THEIR COVENANTs while holding a temple recommend is probably even smaller than that. I think you’re pretty optimistic about the percent of the Mormons who are fully in “all or nothing” mode.

I guess this is where the concept of inoculation of our kids needs to be discussed – so they will be prepared for their own stage 4 experience? Example – does wearing a blue shirt actually hurt a kids testimony, or does it put a pebble in the back of the kids mind so 20 later when they have their own stage 4 crisis they might say, “you know, dad wore a blue shirt to church, he must have some issues with the church just like I do, yet he kept going and wasn’t that bad of guy. Maybe I don’t have to accept the black and white rhetoric either? Maybe there is a place in the church for me after all?”

My hope is that the communication lines will be open enough between myself and my children that if they have problems, they will come to me as their own StayLDS forum and we can talk about it. I hope they don’t have to make assumptions…my little girl already asks me questions about her doubts about God, prayer and priesthood blessings. And we address them….hopefully that is the way their State 4 experiences will be resolved….along with their own search.

I think the church is in an evolutionary process…how else can we set up “the Kingdom of God” which will of necessity be a huge tent.

I think a lot about the metaphorical concept of building the Kingdom of God on Earth. I have a feeling that the tent will be a lot larger than most people expect. If it were not, God would not be very good at His work and glory — to bring to pass the eternal life AND exaltation of humankind.