Home Page Forums General Discussion The Church and the Gospel are not the same thing.

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  • #205299
    Anonymous
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    “The Church and the Gospel are not the same thing.”

    I thought this was an interesting statement from the article HiJolly wrote, as posted in the Additional Resources section of this site. I couldn’t see any discussion on this particular statement.

    I wondered if perhaps we could comment on the meaning of this. In the past, I’ve viewed my problems with the Church as a result of my tendency to separate the Church organization and its leaders, from the Gospel. I feel comfortable seeing the leaders as imperfect individuals, who may or may not be acting in accordance with the will of God, and who may be actually simply inventing policy, procedure and advise to control behavior. So, at times I reject them while still believing the principles of the gospel. The statement seems to embrace this notion…..

    However, the party line would tell us that the Church is the extension of God’s will on earth, and that its decrees and directions from its leaders are to be obeyed; the TBM view is that the Church and the gospel are inseparable.

    So, anyone care to expand on this statement above, what it means, and how it helps us “StayLDS”? In my view, it’s only encouraged me to move away from full activity!

    #234310
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I don’t know. To me the “party line” simply reinforces, or illustrates the difference. The “party line” is driven by culture, and imperfect human understanding. That makes it extra clear to me that it is not Gospel, even though the vast majority may mistake it as such.

    It appears to me that your struggle is with the power of church culture, and the difficulty of swimming up-stream makes you think about climbing out of the water and walking up the shoreline instead. The only thing I can think to say about that right now is: What is more likely to cause someone to think about the direction they are swimming – a fellow swimmer going the other way, or someone that they can’t see walking out on the shore?

    But my reason is not simply to try to turn the tide, personally I really like swimming in this pond, even if at times I’m overcome by the current of the masses. Lately I’ve noticed a few more “fish” swimming in a similar direction as myself, and it renews my energy to hold my course.

    #234311
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The Gospel and The Church http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1376

    The above is a link to a thread I started back in April that featured an excellent conference talk that goes right along with this thread. I thought you might want to check it out. Here is a quote:

    “As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.”

    #234312
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Pres. Uchtdorf has talked explicitly about the difference between the Church and the Gospel – and the tendency to build unnecessary rules around the true law of love.

    Rather than highlight one talk, I would recommend going to the General Conference talks section of lds.com and simply reading every one of his talks since he was called as an apostle – and especially after he became a counselor in the First Presidency. For those not aware of his focus already, reading his talks will be an astounding experience, imo.

    #234313
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I ♥ Uchtdorf!

    He is the best thing that has ever happened to this church in decades! His talks always give me a little piece of hope in the future of this faith and the direction the church is heading. But… how many Uchtdorfs will it take to change the culture of a church, and how long will it take?

    #234314
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I agree flowerdrops, but I also think the process of happiness may rely a little more on “loving what you’ve got” than “getting what you love.”

    #234315
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    how many Uchtdorfs will it take to change the culture of a church, and how long will it take?

    I am encouraged by the most recently called apostles. Elder Anderson, Elder Christofferson and Elder Cook appear to be more like Pres. Uchtdorf than Pres. Packer – and then we have Pres. Eyring and Pres. Uchtdorf in the First Presidency. Elders Packer, Nelson, Oaks and Holland are the more “hardcore” apostles right now – and that’s only four out of fifteen. Overall, the apostles are as inclusive and “liberal” as a group as at any time in my lifetime.

    I honestly have seen quite a change in the last ten years.

    #234316
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    Overall, the apostles are as inclusive and “liberal” as a group as at any time in my lifetime.

    For sure. Overall I am optimistic about the direction the LDS church is heading when it comes to politics, policy and procedure.

    #234317
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m not sure if it’s well known by folks here, but Ronald E. Poelman of the First Qof70 gave a talk in G.C. (oddly enough in 1984…hmmm, Big Brother?), where he attempted to delineate the exact same thoughts many of us, TBM’s and other alike, have had. His talk was severely edited and it is obvious that the changes made were to merge the gospel and the church together as one in complete harmony with the other, and also to reinforce, strengthen and/or re-assert the idea of authority through the church and that this [otherwise earthly] organization is the only authority that members need be concerned about and/or listen to, not their own private interpretation or revelations between them and Diety about the Gospel. The conclusion from the edits then brings the listener to the conclusion that as members become more gospel centered, they will grow to love and appreciate the church, enjoy it’s activities more, and be more involved in whatever assignments, callings or ordinances we are being told to do from the leadership. In other words, there is no separation, and if we’re seeing one, we’re likely not understanding either the Gospel or the Lord’s church.

    Wiki article on Poelman:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_E._Poelman

    The article also explains the depths that the church went through to make things seem that no editing had occurred, as Poelman had to redeliver his edited talk, and a “cough track” was used over it to make it seem as if it had occurred in G.C. The article also reports that he was not invited to speak in G.C. for 4 yrs. I guess that’s how disciplinary action is done at the GA level.

    Poelman’s talk and the changes made to it can be found here:

    http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml

    I’m not saying this to alter anyone’s faith, but simply to show that the church hierarchy does not see that there is a difference, and wants to make sure noone else sees one, even though I think it’s fairly obvious in the day to day operations of the church that there is. History has shown it. Personal experience has shown it. And to think otherwise is, as Poelman initially stated,

    Quote:

    …may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.

    Latterday Skeptic

    #234318
    Anonymous
    Guest

    What was curious to me about that whole business was that his talk was written out to be reviewed by the Ensign staff during the presentation to be sure the printed copy would be the same as presented and as I understand to be reviewed before hand by the correlation committee. Even at that it went through and then had to be redone when there was objection from someone higher. It’s an interesting foot note from 26 years ago but that’s all. Then was then and now is now.

    #234319
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Latterday Skeptic wrote:

    I’m not sure if it’s well known by folks here, but Ronald E. Poelman of the First Qof70 gave a talk in G.C.

    Yeah… an excellent talk! (before the edits) I had posted a link earlier above to a thread were this talk was discussed, but here is the direct link to a great blog entry about it.

    http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/02/best-conference-talk-you-never-read_13.html

    Anyhow, as others have mentioned, that was the past… the edits were disturbing, but I am most interested in what is being said today. Things are looking up!

    #234320
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Wow….I read Poleman’s talk, and watched it on You Tube. Then followed the pure mormonism link. There was an article there that I found had an amusing analogy, which I’ll reprint here:

    Quote:


    The Cheese Man Cometh

    How’s this for a metaphor:

    As I’ve sat at my desk this morning writing the words above, I’ve also been excitedly awaiting the arrival of a special visitor. His name is John, and he’s my local UPS driver. I’m looking forward to John’s visit because today he is scheduled to deliver me a case of cheese. Real cheddar cheese packed in tin cans.

    Two weeks ago I didn’t even know canned cheese existed, and if the reports are true, this variety of cheddar cheese is going to suit me just fine. People say it’s firm and delicious like regular cheddar, and just like deli cheese it can be shredded, sliced, and melted. Best of all it can be stored almost indefinitely. I ordered this cheese because I love, love, love cheese; I eat it every day. If the day arrives when fresh cheese is hard to come by, I’ll now have something other than a No.10 can of dehydrated cheese powder on hand. I’ll be able to retreat to my precious stash of cheddar ‘neath the stairs, thanks in part to the noble efforts of John the UPS guy. I can’t wait until he gets here.

    Now, it should be obvious that it’s not really John that I’m excited about seeing today; what I’m all a-dither about is what he’s bringing with him. When John arrives I’ll answer the door and sign his electronic gizmo, he’ll hand over the box, then he’ll leave. He will be entitled to, and he will receive, my effusive thanks.

    Every couple of months or so John brings me something. Sometimes it’s food. More often he brings me books that teach me things I didn’t know or hadn’t thought about before. So I suppose you could say that in some small way I am indebted to John for my spiritual and intellectual edification. I like John. John and his wonder truck are part of an impressive system that delivers sustenance to me. But neither John, nor his truck, nor that system is the actual sustenance.

    You would certainly think it odd if I were to fawn all over John and his delivery truck to the point of forgetting all about any package he’s trying to hand me. Likewise I would think John a bit screwy if he were to hint that I should accept deliveries from no other source but him, or that I obey his pronouncements and follow his counsel because he is so adept at getting stuff to me. I greatly appreciate the role John plays in my life. But I keep that role in perspective.

    So here’s my point. As Poelman taught, the Church as an institution has a divine function. It provides resources and materials that edify us and enrich our lives. The intrinsic purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ, so by publishing and distributing that book, the Church is providing an incalculable service. The Church also manages a way for us to gather together as a community of fellow believers. Perhaps most importantly, the Church disseminates the word of God and boldly proclaims the gospel of the restoration.

    The Church provides us with spiritual sustenance. But the Church is not the sustenance. The Church is merely the vehicle that delivers the sustenance. As Elder Poelman insisted, it is very important that this distinction be understood.

    How often do we hear our fellow saints extol the virtues of The Brethren and remark upon what a blessing they are in our lives? It’s been my experience that few of these adulators exhibit the same high level of passion for Christ and His gospel. They seem to have a crush on the delivery man.

    The other link above showing the editing of the original to the sanitized version is also very interesting. People who commented on the article through the blog at the puremormonism link thought the parallel betwee 1984 (Orwell) and the re-writing of Church broadcasts to remove objectionable statements (or even objectionable people such as Spencer Kinnard) was a bit melodramatic. I’m not so sure.

    I’m reminded of the Tylenol scare a few decades ago. Someone placed cyanide in one of the bottles. So, Tylenol went on the air, openly admitted the problem, recalled everything, and sucked up the consequences. They then followed up their openness with the statement “Tylenol, the name you can trust”.

    Personally, I think it’s better to be open about your warts and weaknesses when matters are public like this, or else you hurt the perception that you’re an honest organization….the truth should be able to explain the truth about itself.

    #234321
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Although it’s liberating to think the gospel is different from the Church, you have to acknowledge that at certain junctures they are the same.

    For example, ordinances make the gospel and the Church inseparable, as ordinances can only be administered withthe bacing of the formal hierarchy of the Church. So, doing what they say is necessary to get access to those ordinances. On day-to-day life principles such as charity, faith, kindness, you don’t really need the Church, other than for reminders or nourishment, or sometimes, opportunities to strengthen each other in displaying those characteristics through moves, service projects, etcetera.

    I like Poleman’s ideals. I wonder how his talk got through the screenings before conference (if any) or if he submitted a sanitized talk and then gave the controversial one in its place.

    #234322
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I love Poelman, and I loved the talk. It spoke to me then, and it still speaks to me today.

    It was VERY disheartening to me when it was “shredded” and redone and put into the ensign and rerecorded. It totally changed the spiritual message that Poelman was trying to convey to the listeners.

    I think GB is correct though with this comment,

    GBSmith wrote:

    It’s an interesting foot note from 26 years ago but that’s all. Then was then and now is now.

    and I agree, it’s not something that I can continue to harp on and I haven’t heard of this happening since? It appears the days of BRM “It is my providence to define what the doctrine is. It is your providence to repeat what I say, or keep your mouth shut.” are over.

    BTW – that quote by BRM WAS directed at Brother Poelman.

    #234323
    Anonymous
    Guest

    SilentDawning wrote:

    Although it’s liberating to think the gospel is different from the Church, you have to acknowledge that at certain junctures they are the same.

    I will just respectfully disagree. I suppose if one truly believes the ordinances of baptism and celestial marriage ect. are necessary for salvation, and that only the LDS has any authority to perform them…than yeah, I suppose that the church and the gospel would be the same.

    I just don’t believe that is the case.

    — in my warp world view, I don’t see a just god setting up a system that only caterers to less than .01% of the population. Doesn’t work for me — and the whole ordinance for the dead….makes very little sense. I don’t think god places those kind of restrictions on himself or “his children.”

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