Is there any point to it all?

Is there any point to all this discussion. I have bent it every which way I can and the only real non abstract, tangible conclusion I can come to is that no one knows anything about God, heaven, the afterlife or any myriad of spiritual things. It is all speculation and conjecture. Even if you have a powerful spiritual witness it is not long lasting or absolute, just take a look at most of us.

So I ask whats the point if we can not find any real answers, should we just move on and stop trying? Maybe the agnostics have it right. At least they can take it or leave it.

Personally, I don’t think the real point of religion ever was to provide concrete undeniable answers that everyone should be expected agree with. If that’s what you want or expect then in my opinion you might as well be an agnostic/atheist and not waste your time worrying too much about religion. Sure religions try to provide answers but they typically rely heavily on faith in the story of one or more supposedly “inspired” men with a special divine calling like Jesus, Paul, Joseph Smith, Muhammad, etc. and speculation about whether or not these stories are true long after the fact.

It basically comes down to whose story you believe or not. To me the point is that as long as I like these stories and some of them still seem plausible to me then I don’t really need to know for sure how much truth they contain to continue to be interested in them. Also, maybe some people mostly just like attending church and associating with other church members because it makes them feel good to belong to a group that is trying to do something positive and they don’t really care that much about how true the Church’s doctrines are or not.

I think there is a point if it helps find meaning and purpose for you and your family. I have always liked Lowell Bennion’s approach, that religion has it’s place in finding truth, as does science, philosophy, art, and common sense.

It is not the only thing we should be concerned with in life, but I would feel less whole as a person without it, and that keeps me seeking with faith.

I can see how others can find meaning in the searching and discussion. I certainly have learned many things just from forums such as this. Maybe it is the journey and not the destination that is important. Obviously if you were to to journey towards some kind of truth you need to be willing to go where the path leads. That can be a bit of a problem if you try to fully adhere to the tenants of a religion like Mormanism with its absolutes.

Cadence — from reading your posts over the last few months, I see your challenge as adopting/creating/developing a philosophy that you can live with. My opinion is htat you need to decide the objective of your life so when it’s over, you can look back and see that you achieved what you set out to do, and feel satisfied that in spite of the lack of evidence of truth, you did your best. Hopefully part of your philosophy will involve bettering your fellow man or woman somehow, sharing the things you’re good at to the benefit of others, as well as personal goals about what you want to be become.

So, what is important to you? How does Mormonism fit in? If you’re like me and bound to it given the positive responses from you children and family, how can you engage with it in spite of your misgivings? These, to me are important questions for Cadence, recognizing that I don’t know anything either.

I made almost this exact comment yesterday to a close protastant friend of mine…His response was, “you sound like an agnostic!”…My response, “Yes. I am afraid so – and I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing anymore. It gives me a measure of peace.”…There is something in my soul that just feels good to admit that, “I don’t know, and I doubt that anyone else KNOWS anymore than I do.”

I can see how others can find meaning in the searching and discussion. I certainly have learned many things just from forums such as this. Maybe it is the journey and not the destination that is important. Obviously if you were to to journey towards some kind of truth you need to be willing to go where the path leads. That can be a bit of a problem if you try to fully adhere to the tenants of a religion like Mormanism with its absolutes.

Personally I think the attitude that we should expect to know the absolute truth is a relative weakness in Mormonism that really needs to go away. What’s worse is that they have leveraged this hard-line position to make all kinds of unreasonable demands in terms of time, money, and strict rules. This all-or-nothing mindset is a perfect breeding ground for future atheists and agnostics that will often be left with a cynical attitude about religion in general.

If the definition of being agnostic is not knowing for sure about God then everyone would have to be considered an agnostic. Atheists can assume that they know there is no God and believers can assume they know for sure that there is but the truth is that most if not all of them don’t really know for sure because God’s existence is just not a directly verifiable question based on the average person’s experience. Assuming God exists, it is fairly obvious that he just doesn’t want to prove his existence to the majority of people. Even if God does manifest his existence to some people they could still interpret it as an illusion and deny it.

Real Christianity was always about faith, hope, and charity not certainty. As far as I’m concerned this state of mind is a practical “working philosophy” that is generally good for the individual and society in general. Mormonism has corrupted this idea somewhat by insisting that we know that anyone without a temple recommend will not receive the highest possible reward in the next life and we supposedly know all this because the prophets said so. The problem is that these LDS prophets have said many unbelievable and contradictory things that we know about. It seems a little too convenient to claim that they speak for God most of the time but whenever they happen to be wrong after the fact then they were only human. That’s why I would rather assume that they are almost always speaking as men.

Mormonism has corrupted this idea somewhat by insisting that we know that anyone without a temple recommend will not receive the highest possible reward in the next life

This is a great example of what I mean by separating the grand cosmology from the created detail.

“Mormonism” actually DOESN”T insist this. Some Mormons certainly frame it that way (especially in regard to other Mormons), but it actually is a mutation of mainstream Protestant theology – NOT part of the big picture within Mormonism. I wrote about this exact statement recently on my own blog, so I won’t go into detail here – but that just isn’t part of “pure Mormonism”:

“That Actually is Protestant, Not Mormon, Theology” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/09/that-actually-is-protestant-not-mormon.html)

It’s really important, imo, to distinguish between what some or many members believe and what “Mormonism” actually teaches (or what is acceptable and/or possible for a member to believe within the framework of what is taught) – and the more complex the issue or question, the more likely there are to be many, many proposed positions.

Mormonism has corrupted this idea somewhat by insisting that we know that anyone without a temple recommend will not receive the highest possible reward in the next life

This is a great example of what I mean by separating the grand cosmology from the created detail.

“Mormonism” actually DOESN”T insist this. Some Mormons certainly frame it that way

It’s really important, imo, to distinguish between what some or many members believe and what “Mormonism” actually teaches

Ray, this is an interesting thought, but I have to say I just can’t accept that mormonism DOESN’T teach this concept. I wish it was true, but come on. It sounds “apologetic” to me. What about the whole, “you can go up levels in each kingdom, but you can’t go up to the next level…” nonsense that I hear several times a year. I would be interested in hearing you try to defend this statement – and I mean that respectfully.

Perhaps this should be a discussion for a new thread.