Do you need a current Temple Recommend to go to Heaven?

Ray, I really like your take on this and I REALLY wish the whole TR was not part of “mormonism” – but I’m really having a tough time accepting that it is just “mormons who teach it, rather than Mormonism that teaches it.

I have found nothing that comes right out and says that a TR is required, however, I find it very difficult to accept that the mormon religion doesn’t/wouldn’t consider it necessary for those who are in the church and have had a reasonable chance to hold a TR in order to receive exaltation in the CK.

according to Gospel Principles manual, page 227-278, which is being supposedly being taught in every ward and branch across the globe this year, that the requirements for exaltation are, among other things:

2. Keep the commandments

3. Brethern must receive the MP and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition…

4. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

“President Joseph Fielding Smith said: ‘ In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations whic hthe Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that procedeth forth from the mouth of God.” GP page 278

Look, I would love to be wrong on this one, but lets just take the basic concept of “keep the commandments.” The mormon church, since the time of Pres. Grant, teaches that the WoW and tithing ARE commandments from god, hence, if one don’t abide by those guidelines, they won’t get a TR because they are not “keeping the commandments” – hence, at least from my logic — they will not be saved in the Celestrial Kingdom.

Now I don’t believe that, but I’m just not buying into the concept that mormonism teaches anything but. I don’t know, I will meditate on your opinion Ray, and I hope I can see it the same way — but it really goes against what I see as a core doctrine of the mormon church.

I would be interested in other opinions on the matter.

This is a spin-off from another thread. I was reflecting on the scriptures, and whether it says you have to have a temple recommend to go to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

I can’t find anywhere that it says that. I think it says that you have to have ENTERED into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to achieve the highest level, but it doesn’t say that you have to hold a current temple recommend to do so. In fact, none of the endowment or other ceremonies say you have to go back to be worthy to enter at the veil eventually…I’d like to hear where it’s official doctrine or in the scriptures that one must hold a current TR to go to “heaven” defined as the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

It’s not there, as evidenced by the concept that those who die without ever setting foot in a temple can still be exalted – if they accept the Gospel, not if they attend the temple.

We just tend to be WAY harder on those we know and those of whom we have personal expectations than of those we don’t know and of whom we have no personal expectations…That’s a universal, human tendency, and we are not exempt from it in the LDS Church, unfortunately. “Judge not” might be the hardest standard Jesus ever uttered – and it tends to be harder with those we know and love than those we don’t know.

Personally, I don’t believe that we really have a very good idea of what exactly is going to happen when we die. It looks to me like the Church has mostly leveraged the threat of eternal condemnation as a convenient way to get people to do what they want them to. Even if they haven’t written up an emphatic revelation specifically stating that the will of God is for every member to be temple worthy the prevailing opinion seems to be that if you don’t have a current temple recommend when you die then you are just out of luck and will also be separated from your family forever unlike all the good obedient Mormons.

This many members didn’t all think of this same idea on their own; on my mission we were specifically teaching entire discussions about temple marriage, tithing, and the WoW. To me it is interesting to see that Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth and that it contains the “fullness of the Gospel” but it doesn’t really talk about the supposed central importance of temple marriage and priesthood to salvation. I understand the idea that what the Church teaches and what most active members actually believe are often two different things but I just don’t see how anyone can try to claim that these kinds of doctrines along with “follow the prophet” aren’t a big part of what Mormonism is all about at this point.

If we go strictly by what is written in the LDS scriptures then beer is actually a “mild drink” and one of the main things that barley is good for and frappuccino and iced tea aren’t technically “hot drinks” either but what will happen if I drink any of these things in front of my TBM parents, brother, mother-in-law, father-in-law, co-workers, etc.? I know for a fact that they would freak out and try to give me a guilt trip about it and generally lose respect for me as a person. One of the main reasons for this kind of intolerant attitude in my opinion is simply because the Church has put so much emphasis on these “commandments” and made them a specific temple entrance requirement that members are directly asked about in regular interviews.

… It looks to me like the Church has mostly leveraged the threat of eternal condemnation as a convenient way to get people to do what they want them to. Even if they haven’t written up an emphatic revelation specifically stating that the will of God is for every member to be temple worthy the prevailing opinion seems to be that if you don’t have a current temple recommend when you die then you are just out of luck and will also be separated from your family forever unlike all the good obedient Mormons.

This many members didn’t all think of this same idea on their own; on my mission we were specifically teaching entire discussions about temple marriage, tithing, and the WoW. To me it is interesting to see that Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth and that it contains the “fullness of the Gospel” but it doesn’t really talk about the supposed central importance of temple marriage and priesthood to salvation. I understand the idea that what the Church teaches and what most active members actually believe are often two different things but I just don’t see how anyone can try to claim that these kinds of doctrines along with “follow the prophet” aren’t a big part of what Mormonism is all about at this point…One of the main reasons for this kind of intolerant attitude in my opinion is simply because the Church has put so much emphasis on these “commandments” and made them a specific temple entrance requirement that members are directly asked about in regular interviews.

You know, I don’t know if there is this thing that Ray talks about called “pure mormonism”. With my angst towards the LDS culture and my limited understanding, I’m afraid that pure mormonism is little more than a fantasy for me at this time – it’s akin to a science fiction novel. I dearly hope that the concept of “pure mormonism” is a true principle and that is not the same thing as “mormonism.” I will work on incorporating it into my personal philosophy.

Perhaps on all of your planets where pure mormonism exists mormonism teaches that those who have a chance, temple recommends and attendance are NOT required. But on my planet — they are. Whether it is an official church doctrine, I don’t know, but certainly 90% of all devout Mormons believe it and they teach it. And if it is not supposed to be part of the doctrine of mormonism, the leaders have said and done nothing to correct the error – which in effect has allowed it to become a central theme in LDS religion.

And since TR are required for salvation by members and those who have had a reasonable chance, one must abide by the requirements — Follow the prophet, tithing, WoW, magnify your calling, married in the temple, etc etc – or they are damned. That’s just the way it is, on my planet at least.

To enter the lowest level of the celestial kingdom, and thus be saved from spiritual death, you only need baptism and enduring to the end, if my memory serves. At times I’ve wondered if this would be good enough for many people who have issues with the TR questions.

I’ve never been a student of the D&C but if my memory serves there’s precious little in it about this whole business. My sense is that most of what we think is conventional wisdom or doctrine about this stuff is just what’s been passed down from who knows when. It’s inferred and extrapolated but is it revealed truth? I don’t think so.

You know, I don’t know if there is this thing that Ray talks about called “pure mormonism”.

I think it’s his idea of what are the best things about mormonism but to me they’re ideals of Christianity with a bit of a mormon twist. There’s a quote I like that sums it up pretty well.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

I think it’s his idea of what are the best things about mormonism but to me they’re ideals of Christianity with a bit of a mormon twist…

I can live with that.

CWald — I think you’re too hard on yourself with the second-class citizen label you feel. Most people don’t even know if you have a temple recommend or not. And even if they know you don’t have one, it’s a touchy subject and most people don’t even bring it up. The only person who ever brought up my lack of a TR years ago was the Bishop.

Also, you’re in the majority in most Wards. One Ward I was in had 85% of endowed members with current TR’s. But most other Wards were around 20 to 40%. On a Church-wide basis, I doubt if the majority of endowed members even hold TR’s. Perhaps someone else could share any stats they are aware of.

The other thing — Christ taught us to be kind and compassionate to people who aren’t living the full commandments, not be judge them, but to be a light. So, if anyone treats you like a second-class citizen because you’re without a TR, then they are under a certain amount of “condemnation” or disapproval from God.

For the years I didn’t hold a TR (7 years straight), I never felt like a second class citizen. IN fact, in some ways I felt in control of my life again. Also, everyone was all off base when they interacted with me. My priesthood holders didn’t know what to do with me as they no longer had the behavioral control that ensues when people value holding a TR. Yet I was at Church a lot and my family was active. I was a mystery — something to be figured out — and often they didn’t know how to handle me. And, even though I didn’t seek it, I was treated a lot more nicely and without being “taken for granted” like I felt when I was a true blue TR-holding person. People invited me over dinner, tried to talk to me about my feelings about the Church, left me alone when it came to higher-commitment activities in the Church (which I didn’t mind — not being called on at the last minute to fix people’s plumbing wasn’t something I missed).

I actually felt appreciated and cared about a lot more than when I was a TR holder and therefore could be expected to rise to ever whim that came across the desk of fellow members or priesthood leaders.

So, I would look seriously at the second-class citizen philosophy to see if it’s real or imagined.

Second class citizen?

I feel as spiritual and as close to the spiritual realm as perhaps I’ve ever been in my life – yet according to what”Mormons” teach week in and week out, I will not make it to the CK, I will not be with my family in the next life, and I am unable to serve in a leadership capacity because I can’t honestly pass a TR interview — which, according to EVERYONE on this site, these things are not even part of “MORMONISM!” How is that NOT considered being a second class citizen?

I hear what you are saying SD, and Brian, and I appreciate the thoughts – but my situation at the this time does not allow the convenience of “not caring” that you are talking about. I’m in a small branch that is barely hanging on because of a lack of resources, and the BP and his counselors, and the HP leaders, and the HC and the SP and his counselors are pretty well CONSTANTLY talking about it and asking me to get a TR so I could take this calling or that calling – because they need me to make the branch function – and I’m more than willing to help out and do the work — but according to the CHI I am “ineligible” . When I get people in the branch who ask if I would be willing to do this or help here, what I’m I suppose say? “I just tell them that I am willing to take that calling, but they better talk to the BP first.” And of course, the BP has to tell them, “no, brother cwald can’t take that calling, but I can’t tell you why.” When you have 75% of the men and women sitting in early morning Sunday leadership meetings talking about how to solve the problems and who to call to what position — it’s pretty simple to figure out what is going on.

The BP worked for years to get me into my current calling, and finally the SP broke down, out of necessity, and went ahead and approved it. In a small branch, these things are not secret. I think it would be wonderful if there were other folks who had TR that could do the job – but in small branches and wards, that’s not always an option.

I guess SD – I would love to be able to just sit in the back row, or perhaps even better, I would love to just be able to walk away from LDS entirely — but I can’t. I think you understand what I am saying