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I have been pondering the nature of the circumstances in which we take our covenants. I want to speak from a born-in-the-church perspective, because the things I’m going to say don’t apply as much to converts. So, at eight years old, we are told we are old enough to be accountable, and therefore take upon ourselves the covenants of baptism and acquire membership in the church. In watching children develop, I agree completely that an eight year old has some sense of right and wrong. In practice however, I don’t think an eight year old has any idea of what he or she is getting him- or herself into relative to a life-long commitment, nor do I think that most children of active families have a ‘choice’. Most of these kids just go along, because they are good kids and are pliable. In fact, I have never know a child of an active family who refused baptism.
Then for the boys, along comes various offices of the priesthood at age 12 and beyond. Again, most of the kids just go along with it. They are then taught the nature of the covenants they have taken relative to the priesthood.
Then comes mission age, and I admit, young people are a lot more independent by this age and some do not go, and hence to not go through the temple at this juncture. But I would also say that a huge portion of missionaries are there, at least initially, because of family pressure. So, to go on the mission, they have to go to the temple and make temple covenants. In the endowment ceremony, there is a point where a person is free to leave of their ‘own free will and choice’ rather than take on those covenants. So, with Grandma, Grandpa, Mom, Dad, numerous aunts, uncles, cousins, oh and your bishop and young men or young women’s leaders there to cheer you on, virtually no one I have ever seen has backed out at that point.
The same is true for the young bridal candidates who take out their endowments prior to their sealings.
I think that the principles of the covenants are not my argument. My issue lies with the fact that in many cases, we are coerced making the covenants and then later those same covenants are used for manipulative purposes.
Does anyone else feel this way? Any other insights? My wife and are are both sitting here at mid-line, feeling like we never really had a choice in anything. Now were are so wrapped into the church socially, culturally, ethnically, that we feel there is no other practical choice.
silentstruggle wrote:I think that the principles of the covenants are not my argument. My issue lies with the fact that in many cases, we are coerced making the covenants and then later those same covenants are used for manipulative purposes.
Does anyone else feel this way? Any other insights? My wife and are are both sitting here at mid-line, feeling like we never really had a choice in anything. Now were are so wrapped into the church socially, culturally, ethnically, that we feel there is no other practical choice.
Yup. That’s pretty much our mid-life crisis too. My wife took this realization particularly hard. It totally and completely broke her of wanting to be a part of the church. Looking back, she sees decisions she now would not have made, but believed it was her role in the universe.
It didn’t turn out as we expected.
As to the manipulative nature of the covenants, I agree they are sometimes used in that way by people who really are not “getting it” in a healthy and productive way. Manipulative people are … manipulative. The covenants don’t have to be seen that way. But some people shape them into a weapon. Sad.
We can’t know everything when we are young. But we also can’t wait until we are old to start living. I joked elsewhere that nobody under the age of 80 has any business getting married because they are too immature. There’s no point in waiting to that age though, your life is almost over. So we marry too young. We have kids when we know nothing about being a parent. We make all kinds of serious decisions and then look back years later and do a palm-face.
I personally take a little different view. Or at least I try to. Things are as they are, in the NOW. I can wish all I want that I had made different decisions in the past, but I try to be charitable with myself. I made the best decisions I could at the time. I can blame other people, but I was an adult. Poop happens. I try to focus on moving forward and making the best of it with what I have.
From a theological perspective, yes. We make “covenants” without the full 20/20 hindsight of a life of experience. It is what it is, so what does that mean? God must understand this. If God wanted it different, He should have made it different. So it isn’t your fault. I have to assume “working as intended.”
Roll with it, and see what happens. That is the view of life as an adventure. The old view (more orthodox) is that life is a trick question. I don’t buy that anymore.
What silentstruggle describes is something that I think a lot of people experience in a lot of areas in their lives. Even though I didn’t grow up in the church, I went to university because my parents expected me to — it was the family culture. So did my brother, eventually. I think families develop their own culture and expectations, and then everyone has to live within them or face the disapproval of the family, Mormon or not. In Mormonism, it’s stronger, no doubt, because of the endless stream of milestones, until finally, you achieve them all and are left wondering if the ladder is leaning against the wrong wall.
My son is going to be baptized soon, and I know he doesn’t have a clue about what he’s getting himself into — nor would I expect him to at that age — the impact of tithing, the drill-down expectations of service etcetera he might experience throughout his life, but personally, I don’t care. He doesn’t understand why I tell everyone its important not to wear tattoos or to swear either (and if you have a tattoo, don’t be offended, I don’t criticize individuals about it), and why its important not to point out people’s long faces to them when they aren’t happy. I may give reasons, but mostly, kids accept what you say when they are young.
I’m still OK with it though, as I’ve said before, if I do a cost-benefit analysis of the Church, I think I’ve lived a better life and had more benefits being a member than if I as without it. Sure, there have been years of severe angst, but I attribute my life in the Church to my wife staying faithful to me when I was a neglectful husband, to my kids having good hearts (EVERYONE tells me that), to the stability in our home, to the sense of honesty and willingess to do the right thing my family has, as well as my career path to the influence of the Church over the years. So, it’s OK if they sign up for it even though they feel some pressure.
silentstruggle wrote:…I would also say that a huge portion of missionaries are there, at least initially, because of family pressure. So, to go on the mission, they have to go to the temple and make temple covenants. In the endowment ceremony, there is a point where a person is free to leave of their ‘own free will and choice’ rather than take on those covenants. So, with Grandma, Grandpa, Mom, Dad, numerous aunts, uncles, cousins, oh and your bishop and young men or young women’s leaders there to cheer you on, virtually no one I have ever seen has backed out at that point.
…I think that the principles of the covenants are not my argument. My issue lies with the fact that in many cases, we are coerced making the covenants and then later those same covenants are used for manipulative purposes.
Does anyone else feel this way? Any other insights? My wife and are are both sitting here at mid-line, feeling like we never really had a choice in anything. Now were are so wrapped into the church socially, culturally, ethnically, that we feel there is no other practical choice.
That’s sort of the way I feel about the Church, that I was just trying to do what I thought I was supposed to and trying to do what everyone I cared about the most expected me to but now in hindsight maybe some of this wasn’t such a great idea after all. I don’t really regret going on a mission because it was an interesting learning experience unlike anything I probably would have had otherwise. Really the main regret I have is simply that my wife thought belief in the Church was part of the deal when she married me so now she is basically disappointed with me for not believing all this anymore and there’s not much I can really do about it to make things better at this point.
I don’t believe that the Church is deliberately trying to coerce and manipulate people that much; I think they just do things this way because the Church and LDS culture have evolved this way by chance through trial and error and it has worked to some extent. So now they won’t hesitate ask people to commit to doing exactly what they want them to and many people will readily go along with this mostly because they don’t want to say no or feel left out. Now it’s gotten to the point that many members that don’t agree with any one of these Church doctrines or polices almost feel like they don’t have any choice but to stay away from Church entirely because it’s basically not acceptable to many active members to have an opinion that differs significantly from theirs and openly admit it.
Quote:Now it’s gotten to the point that many members that don’t agree with any one of these Church doctrines or polices almost feel like they don’t have any choice but to stay away from Church entirely because it’s basically not acceptable to many active members to have an opinion that differs significantly from theirs and openly admit it.
That’s what I’m finding to be new and exciting about the Church now that I’m not accepting everything now — how to stay involved while not accepting everything. Almost how Christ had to figure out how to live a perfect life yet be convicted/crucified at the same time. A great paradox requiring a significant amount of thought and some intelligence too.
Not that my situation parallels Christ in any significant way, other than the paradox and the interesting intellectual conundrums it presents – which has freshened up my Church experience quite a bit this last month. When I bore my testimony about the Book of Mormon as a way of getting close to God recently, without admitting its historical origins, it was an eye opener. I realized I can experience the Church as a means or symbol for helping me get closer to God, without swallowing everthing hook, line and sinker. I can focus on general principles, and yes, I CAN refuse callings when they don’t work for me, and I CAN decide I’m not going to move people as much, and that I DON’T have to jump every time someone has a whim at Church.
We really are in more control than we think when it comes to our Church experience….
Quote:We really are in more control than we think when it comes to our Church experience….
Absolutely.
silentstruggle wrote:Does anyone else feel this way?
Yes. That is my long answer for now.
I greatly appreciate all the thoughtful and truly helpful replies. I had not considered that similar things would happen in other cultures. Of course they do.
I can take another point of view and see that age nine would not be that different than age 8, for example.
I am also grateful and can see that obedience to those covenants has protected me in many ways.
And I love the helpful thoughts of living in a non-binary mindset within a binary culture. That is indeed one of the core struggles.
silentstruggle wrote:And I love the helpful thoughts of living in a non-binary mindset within a binary culture. That is indeed one of the core struggles.
Simple solution. When you meet someone from the Mormon binary religious culture, just tell them:
“01000111 01101111 01100100 00100000 00111110 00100000 00110001 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 00110000”
That should clear it all up quickly. They will understand it better if you speak their language.
😆 😆 😆 [nerd humor warning, the binary code above says “God > 1 or 0”]Brian Johnston wrote:silentstruggle wrote:And I love the helpful thoughts of living in a non-binary mindset within a binary culture. That is indeed one of the core struggles.
Simple solution. When you meet someone from the Mormon binary religious culture, just tell them:
“01000111 01101111 01100100 00100000 00111110 00100000 00110001 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 00110000”
That should clear it all up quickly. They will understand it better if you speak their language.
😆 😆 😆 [nerd humor warning, the binary code above says “God > 1 or 0”]There are times when I wish we had a Laugh Out Loud button at the bottom of our posts! I would’ve used it this time!
I think that post was written in ogham – Brian Johnston wrote:Simple solution. When you meet someone from the Mormon binary religious culture, just tell them:
“01000111 01101111 01100100 00100000 00111110 00100000 00110001 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 00110000”
Uhhh, is this using Intel architecture or MIPS?
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