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This may be a rather stupid question but I am really wondering why do you or others go to talk to a bishop that his job is to judge you? Why would you go talk to someone that is going to make you feel bad about yourself or tell you how horrible you are? I remember last time I talked to bishop he told me I was not going to heaven or celestial kingdom and that made me so sad. I felt very discouraged and just believed that I was not ever going to heaven. I guess I can understand that if it helps me change it would be a good thing maybe so I could go to heaven or something but I don’t think I understand.
Even when I see the bishop I worry.. what is he thinking about me? It’s hard to talk to someone who’s job is to listen and then tell you how your wrong or find or look for your weaknesses. Maybe I am just to prideful and I should be happy for him to help me find my problems? I just don’t know if I can bring myself to talk to the bishop. I have had some bad experiences before with my first bishop.
Honestly, because the vast majority of Bishop’s aren’t like what you describe. I know that’s not helpful if you have a Bishop who makes you feel bad whenever you talk with him, and, in the situation you described, I probably wouldn’t talk with him formally (in his office) either, but it’s not the way it’s supposed to be.
(Oh, and a Bishop telling someone they aren’t going to heaven or the Celestial Kingdom . . . that simply shouldn’t be, unless someone is committing SERIOUSLY BAD sins and isn’t repentant at all – and even then it always should be couched in terms of repentance that is possible.)
mormonmom wrote:I remember last time I talked to bishop he told me I was not going to heaven or celestial kingdom and that made me so sad. I felt very discouraged and just believed that I was not ever going to heaven. I guess I can understand that if it helps me change it would be a good thing maybe so I could go to heaven or something but I don’t think I understand.
I had a member of the Stake Presidency tell me that, given a current attitude he heard I was struggling with. I agree it’s not helpful. It sounds like your first Bishop was crass. If you came to me with a confession, my goal would be to help you see you’re already taking steps to forgiveness. Coaching would be on overcoming the problem and how to return to inner pieace. There would be an expression of faith that you can overcome, and sincere expressions of a desire to see you receive eventual reward for all the good in your life.
He has no business indicating whether you will or will not go to the celestial kindgom. AS a judge in Israel at this time in our earthly existence his judgment would include disciplinary councils and levying penalties for certain behaviors, but he has no authority to make a determination about whether you will go to heaven eventually — that destiny is in your hands.
These leaders are not perfect, I know that first hand. They are not trained in counselling or in so many areas their responsibilities touch on. You have to try to give them a pass given our mutual imperfections.
It is so sad to hear stories about Bishops that don’t get it. If I had a bishop like the one you described I’d skip visiting with him and quietly wait for a change in leadership! Thank goodness I’ve had bishops who understood that confessing to them is part of repenting and not their opportunity to condemn.
A good bishop or branch president tells you what you probably already know but then what you need to do from there with emphasis on what’s needed to change and not what you’ve done. The trick seems to be to get people to realize that forgiveness is possible and that they don’t need to have him tell them that they’ve been forgiven. The Holy Ghost is about the only person other than your mom that you’ll to tell you you’re ok. Christ’s role is to be the judge and determine if you go to heaven or not, not the bishop. Bishops are ordained to represent Christ, and be a judge in Israel. The church needs organization and authority to run orderly, but has its limitations as it is imperfect people trying to do what they think Christ would do…and they don’t always get it right, which is sad.
Just remember, Christ will help you get to heaven, bishops will judge if they think you can go to the temple. Our role is to be humble and sustain them in their callings, as long as there is not unrighteous dominion. Sustaining them doesn’t mean you have to agree with them, or even like them, just that you see there is a bigger picture than the way the bishop runs the ward. Draw your strength from Christ to help overcome feelings if the bishop makes you feel offended.
Quote:If I had a bishop like the one you described I’d skip visiting with him and quietly wait for a change in leadership!
Me too! Observant – I am finding you very quotable lately!
The best bishop I went to with a confession situation was one who asked me to tell him when I’d been forgiven, not for him to tell me. That was an excellent view. Meeting with him put the onus back on me to find my own spiritual answers, and then to touch base with him to discuss them. So, he was great (I don’t even remember his name now!)
I’ve said before, with 32,000 bishops in the church, they can’t all be winners! They’re going to do the best they can, and sometimes, that’s not very good. But generally, I think they are trying to do a good job. Their hearts are in the right place even if they lack experience or emotional intelligence to deal sometimes. And they do all get training & time invested in them, but again, some take it better than others.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I’ve said before, with 32,000 bishops in the church, they can’t all be winners! They’re going to do the best they can, and sometimes, that’s not very good. But generally, I think they are trying to do a good job. Their hearts are in the right place even if they lack experience or emotional intelligence to deal sometimes. And they do all get training & time invested in them, but again, some take it better than others.
Yes, and often just after about 5 years of practice when they start to “get it” they are replaced with a newbie. I guess change is a good thing,though. I think they mostly have good intentions…but you know what they say about the road that leads to?They are probably doing their best given what they have to work with. The reality is however it is not such a good thing to seek counseling from an untrained individual. When men use their opinions to guide you in your persona life it can many times cause more problems than it solves. Many Bishops are not even well versed in theology to answer spiritual questions.It is one of the unfortunate side effect of having a lay clergy. Cadence wrote:They are probably doing their best given what they have to work with. The reality is however it is not such a good thing to seek counseling from an untrained individual. When men use their opinions to guide you in your persona life it can many times cause more problems than it solves. Many Bishops are not even well versed in theology to answer spiritual questions.It is one of the unfortunate side effect of having a lay clergy.
I’d love to see the day when the Bishop’s position is restructured, with a greater investment in LDS Social Services types of counselors who can help people with their problems, closer to home. Also, separate the ultimate responsiblity for disbursing fast offering funds from the administration of the Ward (callings/releases/disciplinary councils) so the Bishop isn’t the everything-man. I think some kind of stake social services/welfare organization would free up the Bishopric and local leaders to really invest in the Ward programs to make the day-to-day Church experience better.
As a former Bishop’s counselor, I felt a lot of frustration because so many members saw the Counselor as a “lackey” for the Bishop. As a mere messenger and not anyone with any authority. So often, I had to say “take that up with the Bishop” when the issues eclipsed my authority. I think the troika-like Bishopric could have responsiblities redrawn to invest more decision-making authority in the counselors, who act more as “vice-presidents” rather than sideliners. There is just too much to do for one man, so stuff falls off the table and often, the members suffer. Meanwhile, the counselors are underutilized.
I would only go see a Bishop if I thought I had done something that would impact my status as a member of the church (you know, like accidentally wearing flip-flops to sacrament meeting, or something more minor like adultery or murder, hehe). It has nothing to do with forgiveness, just the administrative aspect of it.
I am fine having chit-chats or interviews, but i’m only going to seek them for serious advice and counselling if I think they have some special talents or skills I would like to access, independent of their title.
I can’t say I really had much useful experience in the past with Bishops helping me with any kind of spiritual problems. And the few “secular” recommendations about life or finances also failed. It’s just so hit or miss. I respect the position. I like to support my leaders and help them be successful (which makes my ward/community) successful. So don’t get me wrong. I appreciate that people put a lot of time into our religious communities.
Cadence wrote:They are probably doing their best given what they have to work with. The reality is however it is not such a good thing to seek counseling from an untrained individual. When men use their opinions to guide you in your persona life it can many times cause more problems than it solves. Many Bishops are not even well versed in theology to answer spiritual questions.It is one of the unfortunate side effect of having a lay clergy.
I agree with this statement; however, just to play devil’s advocate, the branch president in my home ward was in fact a trained professional, which drove me completely batty. Every time I went in to meet with him (routine youth interviews) it was like I was in an unrequested therapy session. He would nod his head, scribble down notes enigmatically and ask open ended questions, using silence like a form of water torture designed to ellicit confessions (or so I imagined). However, fast & testimony meeting had taught me to be comfortable with uncomfortable silences, so I did not cave. mwahaha.
hawkgrrrl wrote:using silence like a form of water torture designed to ellicit confessions
I did not cave. mwahaha. Excellent work Agent 99!
Don’t forget, if captured, we are only required to give the following information: Name, priesthood rank and membership number.
Never divulge details of sources and methods, or operational mission plans. Also, never reveal your agency code name (the one given to you in the temple).
Loose lips sink ships.
[img]http://www.iment.com/maida/tv/gs/getsmartimages/max-200.jpg [/img] Cadence wrote:They are probably doing their best given what they have to work with. The reality is however it is not such a good thing to seek counseling from an untrained individual. When men use their opinions to guide you in your persona life it can many times cause more problems than it solves. Many Bishops are not even well versed in theology to answer spiritual questions.It is one of the unfortunate side effect of having a lay clergy.
The local bishop has pointed me towrds trained professionals should I need them, and said more or less it was not his training.
I know that our bishop gets lots of bills in the mail to pay for trained counselors. He’s under no delusion that he’s a professional counselor.
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