Another tithing question

Number 2 would also motivate me more. I believe blessings come from good living and giving in other ways — and that the Lord will look at the state of your heart. Cwald says he gives more than 10% but not all to the Church — that HAS to count for something as it shows a generous heart.

However, #2 would only motivate me if I felt the money was truly needed — if there is so much surplus it goes into mall and real estate develoments, I start thinking about other purposes the money could be used for.

Another reason that motivates me is that the Church MIGHT be as absolutely true as the Church claims to be. When this life is over, then the money I’ve hoarded won’t matter anymore, and if the tithing commandment is as strict as it’s listed, then I’ll be glad I paid it. It’s certainly the best thing out there of all the different religions I looked at when deciding which to join; notwithstanding its cultural and historical warts.

The TR does motivate me somewhat, although I’ve never really enjoyed going to the temple, quite frankly. It’s more the feeling of being in compliance that motivates me, again, in case it turns out to be as true as I once believed it was…

#2 is essentially why I pay tithing. I believe it is a pretty good system, in theory – especially in a theocracy or any other system where tithing basically is what people pay to maintain the community.

The real issue, imo, is the addition of secular taxes and what that does to one’s available funds. When someone has to support TWO community systems – and when the LOWEST financial contribution of the two is tithing . . .

Yep. I am not sure how you can spin it any other way. Need the temple to get to the CK and you need to pay tithing to get to the temple. Not shortcuts allowed. The funny thing is I do not think this correlation enters the mind of the average member at all. It never did mine until I took a critical look at all things Mormon. Now it just seems like a bad system to me.

In the LDS culture I grew up in, the Catholics were demeaned and scoffed at because of their history of selling indulgences and the whole pass-the-plate system. I’m sorry, but I see no difference in what we are doing. We may even be worse. When my friend was disfellowedship last year, he was COMMANDED to pay tithing as one of the requirements to have his “blessings restored.” IMO, that is called “money for repentance and forgiveness”

Sure, the church leaders see it as an outward showing of obedience to church leaders, and that if one has faith in god, they will have faith in the church, and they will have faith in the leaders and that god will never “lead the prophet astray etc” so the money is actually getting paid to GOD, not the church. That is how I viewed it for 30 years to. Perhaps I will get moderated here, but why mince words — now I see it as “salvation for sale” and I’m not happy or spiteful when I say so. It’s sad to me, and it’s like someone has shoved a dagger in my heart that we would based the concept of eternal life and salvation and families together forever, contingent on the necessity of paying tithing to the church — who refuse to be transparent and accountable to the very people who are giving them the money to begin.

Like I said, if I actually was worried about a TR, I would NOT be paying tithing, as it would be for all the wrong reasons and I can’t do that anymore. Since I have no hope of getting a TR, I have no problem paying my fair share to upkeep the building and pay the bills. But that’s it — the rest I will give to the community where I see poverty and suffering on a daily basis.

Okay – maybe I am a little bit bitter about it. Tis the season of Tithing Settlement.

cwald,

How would you calculate your portion so as not to be a freeloader as you say? Would you calculated what your ward would spend on expenses in a year, divide that by the number of adults in the ward and voila you have your number? I wouldn’t have a clue how to find that information. I could guess I suppose.

CG

cwald,

How would you calculate your portion so as not to be a freeloader as you say? Would you calculated what your ward would spend on expenses in a year, divide that by the number of adults in the ward and voila you have your number? I wouldn’t have a clue how to find that information. I could guess I suppose.

CG

One could do that, but I wouldn’t. That would seem almost too pharisaical to me. I just pay what I feel is a reasonable and generous amount – yet I didn’t do any calculations on Net or Gross, or even “increase” that we have talked about. I just mulled it over in my mind, came up with a number that seems right, and asked god what he thought. My tithing (to the church) was a thousand bucks this year, which would certainly be more than my fair share of the bills and such. I guess if I pay more than my fair share, I shouldn’t be concerned about it, and I would expect that if I paid less than my fair share, the church shouldn’t be concerned about it either.

My idealism is starting to bleed through the screen again I think.

I agree with cwald. In fact I spent a month trying to figure out how much tithing to pay for the year. In the end I decided it was against any concept of giving to try and figure it by percentage. I mulled it over and came up with a figure that I think represents my place in the overall cost structure of the church and paid that. The rest went to fast offerings and local charity. Nothing based on a percentage to me anymore, just what I can do.

My feeling is that if everyone was as mature and generous as Cadence and cwald, they wouldn’t need to define it as 10% of income…they could rely on members to give what they can and what is fair.

However it has been my experience (warning: over-generalization coming here) that many Mormons I’ve dealt with are a bit of cheap skaters when it comes to parting with money (poor tippers, frugality is valued, always negotiate lowest prices with contractors, etc) so a standard had to be set or not enough would give regularly. I think that was supported in history, leading up to the standards we have today. Now that those standards are set to get to the temple, people give generously, so they can feel good about their sacrifice and know it is enough that god accepts because His mouthpiece has said so.

I still think the Lord looks upon our hearts, and knows how much is enough and accepts an honest sacrifice, and is also concerned with why we are or are not obedient to the law given…I hope he doesn’t just judge based on accounting.

My thinking on tithing, which has brought me back into a reconciliation with the Church on the subject has two principles attached:

1. Tithing has multiple definitions. Scriptures — 10% of increase (an ambiguous term). 1971 letter from First Presidency — 10% of income (not doctrine, income not clearly defined, with the rejoinder that no one has the right to say “any more than this”). Some interpret it as 10% of gross, some net. Others 10% of even lower amounts. Bishops appear to have received training to accept people’s tithing declaration and know nothing about the underlying calculations. Two Bishops have told me they aren’t in a position to judge because they don’t know income etcetera. Some GA’s have given conflicting advice defining income as gross wages, in spite of hte FP letter saying “no one can say any more than this”. The word “income” has different meanings from an accounting standpoint — Net income is what is left after running the entity that throws off the cash — and it’s after tax — that’s what’s added to one’s wealth, and could be considered income. There is a concept called comprehensive income, which refers to certain non-cash kinds of income that can be recognized. There are losses on investments which are considered extraordinary income in some cases, and can be factored in, and still be in harmony with generally accepted principles fo accounting. Personal finance tends to call income gross wages, which is another definition of income.

Therefore, if I feel the Church is awash in cash, then I’m going to choose a definition of income that is as liberal as possible without interefering with my relationship with God. If I feel the Church really needs the money, then I might up it significantly, but at this time, in the absence of published financial statements, evidence tells me the Church doesn’t need 10% of gross. Which brings me to my next point.

2. There are multiple selfless “principles” all clamoring for our funds. There is self-reliance. There is fast offerings, there is tithing to fund operations. There are college funds (valuable to help kids with weak resources save through a matched savings program), there is getting out of debt by paying down mortgages or school debt, there are mission funds, there is a year’s supply of food and money. All these things are GOOD and each are encouraged by the Church. Every one of them a good thing and suggested by GA’s as good things to dedicate funds to. In my family, there are supplies needed to sustain the life of children with chronic illnesses.

So, I have ranked these competing principles and definitions of income in order of importance, and have come up with my own amount on wich my 10% is based this year. I’ll do so next year and forever until an angel sits down with me and tells me otherwise. And I feel at peace about it now.

I honestly believe the amount you pay is what your heart is telling you. Now that I know the Church isn’t out to make me submit pay stubs to issue a temple recommend or impose a strict definition, then I’m OK with my own interpretation.