Does God Only Help The Righteous?

Another flaw in the mormon theology. I don’t live the “mormon commandments” necessarily, and I am doing fine, and feel the spirit often. More so now than ever in my life.

I’m with Cwald. I had a period of 7 years when I didn’t pay tithing and bad-mouthed the Church regularly to a friend (a Mormon Bishop) because I was deeply hurt by something. During that time, I was open to my own Bishop about my disobedience, and it stemming from the damage to my testimony the way an adoption was handled by LDS Social Services (and the Bishop’s counselor and ex-Stake President/Mission President who were part of it). And there were other commandments I wasn’t living to the fullest either — in outright disobedient mode (not confession-worthy, but definitely infractions).

However, I ended up taking a calling, and teaching a couple classes as a substitute teacher. In our yearly meeting, the Bishop said “I’m not worried about you — I always feel the Spirit whenever you speak or teach”.

I had one miracle in that period as well, and felt the Spirit on a number of occasions. Honestly, I think God sees everyone as a sinner when measured against his perfection, and that he guides and loves the sinners just as much as the ones who are righteous.

However, I do think that when entire societies get deeply out of line, or when individuals cross the line into extremely heinous sins without remorse, there is a withdrawal until there’s a certain amount of contrition shown.

No.

Well, yeah.

Perhaps that is why I get riled up every conference and just about every Sunday when I hear a speaker make the claim that if one is disobedient they will lose the spirit and no longer be able to tap into “revelation line of communication, and will not be in tune with god.”

I guess it comes back to that fear and guilt factor that works so well for so many?

cwald, I would go to your ward every Sunday on the chance that you would get “riled” up! Heck, come visit my ward, sometimes if it weren’t for the snoring I’d be checking for pulses.

Haha. Well, check out this thread http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2046” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2046 and maybe this thread http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1866” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1866.

Some weeks I would trade that snoring in a heart beat.

Their response was you need to be living close to the spirit to get answers what ever that means.

So is God only there for the “righteous” or does he really help everyone equally?

Short answer: No, and probably neither.

God is there for everyone, or perhaps He isn’t there for anyone. God might not actually micro manage the minute-by-minute results of our daily lives to make sure everything runs according to a plan.

But here is what I really wanted to add:

This is a commonly asserted idea in Mormonism. I believe it has its root in a conflation of two different view points, neither of which is likely to be the absolute viewpoint of someone who finds their self participating at StayLDS in the discussion.

There are two assumptions in this idea:

1. God actually cares about you as an individual.

2. God interacts with us in a reciprocal relationship.

The personally involved God, as in our “Heavenly Father,” is a solid Stage 3 way of viewing deity. This is very emphasized in Mormonism. God knows us and loves us, and pays attention when we have needs, and has a master plan for our existence. PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying this isn’t true. I am just saying it is a distinct viewpoint, different than other viewpoints. It is an assumption, and it may be a true assumption. I don’t actually know.

Stage 2 faith relates to deity with a reciprocal relationship. You do X, and then God does Y. God will protect and help me because I did things for him. I sacrificed the right cow and chickens in the right way, so God will make me strong to win the next battle with the neighboring tribe. It’s very formulaic, and not yet personal. In stage 3, God loves you personally like a good parent, not because you did good work and he owes you.

Both ideas work better “rationally” on their own (if that’s the right word for it). But when you combine them — as in God will only give you what you need if you please Him — then you combine the two frameworks in a way that is not “logical” to a Stage 4 viewpoint.

God can’t be the “good father” of Stage 3 who helps the needy, if he only gives help to the people who don’t need help. That violates the “logic” of both the Stage 2 quid pro quo negotiations God, AND the image of a loving God who cares about you and picks you up when you fall down (for no payment).

God can’t be the “good father” of Stage 3 who helps the needy, if he only gives help to the people who don’t need help. That violates the “logic” of both the Stage 2 quid pro quo negotiations God, AND the image of a loving God who cares about you and picks you up when you fall down (for no payment).

Beautifully said. :clap: We teach both in the church at the same time (stage 2 and 3) yet the two conflict. This brings me to the Tithing Settlement conversation with my Bishop were he was saying that in his experience God never (or almost never) intervenes. He also told me that I would never hear this from the pulpit as it would not be comprehensible to many, like trying to explain these concepts to my 5 yr old daughter.

I was then so surprised several days later when this same Bishop said from the pulpit that members who don’t pay full tithes will be burned at the second coming as covenant breakers/liars. At the time I was floored, but now I think I understand. Bishop was saying that God doesn’t intervene in this life and therefore the questions of whether your performance influences the degree and frequency of the interventions are irrelevant.

But that does not preclude God taking definitive action in the next life. In the next life Justice and Mercy Rule! God fulfills his stage 2 reciprocal side through justice and also fulfills the stage 3 loving parent side through mercy and the atonement. So the two ideas can be held simultaneously just that the blending of the two doesn’t do a very good job at explaining mortal experiences of fortune or misfortune in this life.

…does God refuse to help them because they were not spot on on all the commandments?

another false tradition.

Perhaps, letting go of the guilt of not doing everything perfect will allow us to be more open to the promptings that He would want to give us.

AMEN!!

Before you can answer if God only helps the righteous you have to define what is righteous. And that, my friends, is what causes war so good luck.

Seriously though, I don’t think that anyone has a perfect handle on what is righteous. I think that if we are honestly trying to do good and helping those around us that need it then you are going to have help from God…

Great thought. This what I was trying to say, but just didn’t do it justice. Being a good mormon is NOT the same thing as being “righteous.” Yet we in our culture way too often confuse the two. “Mormon commandments” ARE NOT the same as the gospel commandments. Is one really being unrighteous if they wear two sets of earrings, drink tea, skip church, never go to church, wear a blue shirt, refuse a calling, don’t do their home-teaching, don’t believe in the story of Noah, watch football on sunday, get a tattoo, smoke a joint, don’t call the leaders by their titles, get a vasectomy, don’t follow the CHI, read the Bible every day instead of the BoM, question the message delivered at GC, give some of your tithing to other charities besides the LDS church, bring rubbarb jello to the potluck instead of carrot jello etc etc.