The Lost Book of Abraham

My take:

Growing up in the church most controversial or negative church issues that made it to my ears were easily explained away to my young, inexperienced, mind. I was also told that the Church had enemies that just wanted to tell lies and damage the “One True Church” (them vrs. us) I was outfitted with my spiritual flack-jacket, a shield of faith, and the sword of spirit (just bear your testimony). In the process of growing up some people begin to analyze the tactics and fallacies of persuasion used for better or worse in this church and some of those people start to look outside the box that was put in place to keep them “safe” from the servants of the adversary.

I was exposed to [the video linked in the initial post] at a point in my life after I had stopped believing everything I was told (for me that took way too long). Having said that, I must add that there is a possibility that my conclusions are wrong and if I find credible evidence supporting such, I will adjust my conclusions. I am not afraid of being wrong, there is always room in my life for more truth. But when I feel someone is using the tactics of old to explain away the situation, of course in favor of the status quo I am quick to call BS! With passion!

In my opinion and that of a good number of people inside and outside of the church, this documentary is well balanced, meaning that it is based on evidence that is tangible and can be tested.

One possibility is that JS knew he didn’t have any clue what he was doing and just invented the story of the book of Abraham. Perhaps he felt pressured by the saints who surrounded him to perform as he had in the past. Those members knew well that in his own words, he claimed that he had translated the Book of Mormon from ancient Egyptian.

Another possibility is that he had that burning in his chest and “felt the spirit” truly believing that he was translating the book of Abraham, brought to him by the power of God. I tend to favor this one based much on his behavior in the rest of his life.

The one point that I think is very strong is that what we know as the “Book of Abraham” in the POGP is not what it claims to be. Does that also mean that other translations or revelations of JS ie. “The Book of Mormon” and even the “Doctrine and Covenants” are as equally flawed as the “Book of Abraham?”

f4h1

Everyone:

I am deleting the link in the initial post. It is from an explicitly anti-Mormon site, and our rules here don’t allow links to sites where the entire mission is to get people to leave the LDS Church – or to not join in the process. Those are the explicit and exclusive purposes of the site; it truly is an anti-Mormon site in the most extreme sense of that term.

Second, in this case, we have discussed the Book of Abraham extensively already here. I will look for that thread and bump it up for further discussion, if anyone is interested in pursuing it.

Ray

Ray’s point is that we have a policy not to link to sites that have a mission to lead people out of the church – or as they put it “prove the fraud.” That is why the link was deleted, to keep with our policy.

We are certainly open to discuss any piece of reliable information. To satisfy any curiosity anyone can go to youtube.com and search “Lost Book of Abraham” to view the video in question. We just don’t post the link here.

F4H1 I feel your pain. It can be extremely stressful to have your personal expectations shattered. Many of us have gone through what you are feeling. Your views and feelings are obviously in a state of change – they will evolve to one direction or another. I praise your ability to have an open mind enough to allow even the possibility that Joseph was sincere in his publishing the revelation of Abraham – even if he misunderstood the physical source.

If I recall correctly there have been prominent members – such as Richard Bushman – who have acknowledged that the BoA is not a “translation” in the traditional sense of the word. If it helps you to view the scrolls as a source of inspiration then by all means look at them in that way. The idea of Staying is to take all the good and valuable (no matter the source), hold to and cherish those things as you find new value in your community — and as you rediscover God’s hand on earth.

To answer your question about if it calls other translations into question I’d have to say yes of course it does. The BoA and the Kinderhook plates throw a lot of question onto the physical realities of Josephs translations. Personally, in my desire to stay, I have chosen to follow the Leonard Arrington way and say [paraphrasing his words in my own way]: “It doesn’t matter to me one bit whether they are ‘fictional’ in the traditional sense of the word, ‘metaphorical’ in their application, or precisely what happened. That they convey religious truth is what makes them meaningful to my worship, and of that I have never had a doubt.”

…Growing up in the church most controversial or negative church issues that made it to my ears were easily explained away to my young, inexperienced, mind. I was also told that the Church had enemies that just wanted to tell lies and damage the “One True Church” (them vrs. us) I was outfitted with my spiritual flack-jacket, a shield of faith, and the sword of spirit (just bear your testimony). In the process of growing up some people begin to analyze the tactics and fallacies of persuasion used for better or worse in this church and some of those people start to look outside the box that was put in place to keep them “safe” from the servants of the adversary.

I was exposed to [the video linked in the initial post] at a point in my life after I had stopped believing everything I was told (for me that took way too long). Having said that, I must add that there is a possibility that my conclusions are wrong and if I find credible evidence supporting such, I will adjust my conclusions. I am not afraid of being wrong, there is always room in my life for more truth…The one point that I think is very strong is that what we know as the “Book of Abraham” in the POGP is not what it claims to be. Does that also mean that other translations or revelations of JS ie. “The Book of Mormon” and even the “Doctrine and Covenants” are as equally flawed as the “Book of Abraham?”

The Book of Abraham is probably the closest thing there is to a “smoking gun” to really discredit Joseph Smith as a reliable prophet and there are many other questions like marrying other men’s wives and digging for treasure that would be very hard for the Church to explain as well so they typically don’t even try and just present whitewashed history instead. Personally, I already think JS was either delusional or some kind “pious fraud” or outright con-man and pathological liar without really needing to watch this video.

For some of us the question is not so much whether the Church is “true” as much as whether or not the Church is good at this point and if not is it really bad enough to make it worthwhile to resign and make a big stink about it. In other words, if the Church is not what it claims to be then what should we do about it now? At this point I just don’t feel like leaving and trying to openly oppose the Church. However, if anyone here really believes that the Book of Abraham is inspired (jamison, Heber, MH?) I would be interested in hearing their explanation about why several Egyptologists’ translations of these papyrus fragments don’t match Joseph Smith’s translation. So far I haven’t heard any apologetic response to this issue that really helped me feel any better about the idea of Joseph Smith as a completely trustworthy prophet.

Everyone:

I am deleting the link in the initial post. It is from an explicitly anti-Mormon site, and our rules here don’t allow links to sites where the entire mission is to get people to leave the LDS Church – or to not join in the process. Those are the explicit and exclusive purposes of the site; it truly is an anti-Mormon site in the most extreme sense of that term.

Second, in this case, we have discussed the Book of Abraham extensively already here. I will look for that thread and bump it up for further discussion, if anyone is interested in pursuing it.

Ray

I have not seen the video and have no desire to. I know enough already from our OWN LDS scholars to have an educated opinion, and don’t need the anti site.

I think to be fair though, this whole issue was not brought up by f4h1. It was brought up by jamison, who wrote a lengthy post in f4h1 intro about the merits of the Book Of Abraham, that started “I know this is not an apologetic site, but…”

So even though we have discussed it at length some time ago — I’m still looking for the explanation that jamison is talking about. He has a degree in anthropology and seems to know a lot about Egyptian/Hebrew mixed languages. Well — talk to us then. I agree with the DA — I’ve yet to hear a good logical explanation that works, so if there is one out there, let’s hear it.

The Book of Abraham is probably the closest thing there is to a “smoking gun” to really discredit Joseph Smith as a reliable prophet

Woah woah woah … wait a minute. 🙂

I’ll agree that it’s a “smoking gun” perhaps that he wasn’t a reliable (magical) translator of ancient documents. But I don’t think it comes anywhere near the heat level of “smoking” as far as discrediting JS as a reliable prophet. Other issues might do that, but not the BoA in my opinion.

Joseph Smith seems about as run-of-the-mill as any other prophet figure out there in history. Moses came down from a mountain with stone slabs carved by the “finger of God.” Ezekiel wrote about his ‘shroom trips. John the Revelator seemed to have found Ezekiel’s stash in a cave somewhere on Patmos. I could go on and on. Are you saying Ezekiel’s alien abduction story is more credible than JS “translating” mummy scrolls? 😈

The Book of Abraham is probably the closest thing there is to a “smoking gun” to really discredit Joseph Smith as a reliable prophet

Woah woah woah … wait a minute. 🙂

I’ll agree that it’s a “smoking gun” perhaps that he wasn’t a reliable (magical) translator of ancient documents. But I don’t think it comes anywhere near the heat level of “smoking” as far as discrediting JS as a reliable prophet. Other issues might do that, but not the BoA in my opinion.

Joseph Smith seems about as run-of-the-mill as any other prophet figure out there in history. Moses came down from a mountain with stone slabs carved by the “finger of God.” Ezekiel wrote about his ‘shroom trips. John the Revelator seemed to have found Ezekiel’s stash in a cave somewhere on Patmos. I could go on and on. Are you saying Ezekiel’s alien abduction story is more credible than JS “translating” mummy scrolls? 😈

Yes, but they didn’t “lie” about it.

I think that is where the smoking gun is. I would have less of a problem with the POGP if JS and the church would/would have just come clean about it’s origins. Its the “white washed”, sanitized history that makes me doubt.