Going Back to #4

It looks like I closed the other thread prematurely. I apologize. My intention was to focus on one at a time, then open them again after we had discussed all of them.

Anyway, to this post:

Sorry, but that reasoning doesn’t work for me – mostly because if it’s true then anyone who was killed because of their religious teachings and practices would be a fallen prophet – and that would include Jesus, as well as anyone who was “martyred” for challenging the establishment. I think that puts too much emphasis on not teaching or doing things that might cause others to react extremely negatively, and sometimes that kind of teaching is necessary. I don’t think it’s necessary as a general rule, but it absolutely is necessary at times.

I totally get schism’s thinking now, and I have had similar musings myself. But of course, Ray’s point is valid too. Which brings us unavoidably to cwald’s conclusion IF we consider F4 in the context of the tradition that has grown up all around it, including statements like, “If I were to attempt to do so, the Lord would remove me from my place.”

So, back to schism’s opening post, was Wilford Woodruff making an oblique reference to Joseph Smith’s “removal” when he made the statement above?

I think even if the Lord did need to remove a prophet to prevent him from leading the church astray…how would we ever know?

Think of Pres Benson and the state he was in for many years as the prophet. Or there is Pres Hunter and Harold B Lee with short tenures as prophet (even thought they had long and distinguished years in church service).

I’m not suggesting ANY of these were removed by God for leading the church astray in any way, shape or form…I’m just stating the fact that I don’t think we would ever know. Again, as Ray mentioned, Joseph’s martyrdom immortalized him in Mormon folklore as one of the greatest to ever walk the earth.

I’m OK with #4.

I had the same thinking as Heber. If you were God, and the prophet led the masses astray on some point that wasn’t grave, but was a violation in God’s view, would you grandstand a removal? Probably not — remove him and gently install someone else. You wouldn’t want to destroy the faith fo the membership.

And it would just be like God to take a negative situation and turn it into something good for this Kingdom. In my view, Joseph Smith made a mistake when he destroyed the printing press of The Expositor. Truth Restored indicated that he was imprisoned on a “trumped up charge”, but the PBS.org historians indicate it was because he ordered the Expositor press destroyed. If my understanding of history is correct, this is eventually what led to his imprisonment, which then led to his untimely death.

However, to Mormons he has gone down in history as a matyr who died for his religion, which only strengthened his place in the hearts of LDS people.

It would be just like God to take a negative situation, deal with it, and create positive outcomes out of it which further his ends.

But I recognize we will never know for sure if Joseph was removed by God, or if it was simply the random forces of life acting on his situation. God doesn’t publish articles on the removal of his prophets. But we know he does punish them when they get out of line.

I’m not sure I completely follow your reasoning. Maybe you or somebody else can explain for the feeble-minded.

To me, Brigham Young’s ministry is a clear contradiction of fundamental #4.

I tend to think BY’s strengths were as an organizer, rather than a Joseph Smith type figure. Joseph was bad at organization, and good at the prophesying… but BY was the reverse.