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There is always much discussion on modern day revelation and prophets. When is a prophet a prophet, when is it revelation and when is it opinion. So one of the things that bothers me is this; Can a person claiming to be a prophet and requiring us to sustain them as such have the allowance of making mistakes on doctrinal, or prophetical issues? I am not talking here about picking the right stocks or managing the day to day affairs of the church but actual pronouncements on doctrinal or church policy. It seems to me if you are going to claim revelation then you do not have the luxury of making mistakes. You or others can not claim for you sometimes you speak as a prophet and sometimes as a man. You can not have it both ways, otherwise where is your value. How are others to know which is which. Beyond that if you claim to be a prophet then should you not be required to prophesy beyond stating the obvious and retreading old talks and opinions. Should you not be required to make prophetic announcements on the issues that challenge people in your time. Again if you can not where is the value in having a prophet? It just seems to be a TBM makes way to many allowances for leaders who claim divine revelation yet never or rarely deliver it. Sure I know some members point to all sorts of little things that they see as revelation but none of those would be considered revelation in times past. Instructions on obeying the golden rule does not account as revelation. A new instruction manual that goes through multiple committees and revisions does not account as revelation. All these things may be good for the functioning of the church but where are the prophetic announcements? The church seems as though it is wandering in the wilderness to me. Or at a minimum on one giant treadmill expending energy but going no place.
Maybe I expect to much, but when much is required of me in behavior, time, and obedience, do I not have the right to require more substance from those claiming divine revelation? I just find little or no satisfaction in obeying purely for the fact that I am told such and maybe just maybe I will get an eternal reward, but most likely not because I doubt.
In my opinion, you have reasonable expectations, Cadence. You want confidence the prophet speaks for God and those things can be taken for his word and bless your life. In short, what the prophet says should be what God wants us to know. I think the problem comes if you want the prophet to have perfect, universal, and unchanging truth in order to have confidence in him…like math formulas that won’t change, and if we do have to change the formula then he must not be a prophet. I don’t think that happens, as much as guidance given for us in our day for what we need to know. Things could change in 50 years, and so further revelation is needed. The whole “Moses wasn’t told how to build an ark” thing. The prophets aren’t given all knowledge, so they go with what they have – but I believe that can be enough for what we need (even if I wish I had more clear direction). Like with Moses leading the people out of Egypt and to the promised land. Even if he didn’t know where the flip he was going, and it was an incredibly long inefficient way…someone could argue he didn’t know what he was doing…
but the idea was leading the people to purpose in life, not necessarily to a location on the map.In a way, they do get it both ways. They have to tell us what they know based on their limited circumstance. For the revelation they get, there is faith the membership has that following that particular revelation will bring blessings, until further light and knowledge provides more insight.
It sounds like what you want is a detailed map from the prophet, with all the dimensions and data points exact and unchanging, and maybe the map is missing some info, but when that new info comes, it should fit right into the existing map dimensions and the map doesn’t change or get redrawn.
I look at it more like the prophet sees a lighthouse…pointing us in a direction…but there are multiple ways to get there and many new perceptions of the landscape between where we are and the lighthouse. So the trick is to have confidence the prophet is leading us in a good direction, even if he is fallible and doesn’t know everything along the way.
I suppose the way round this is, perhaps since the prophet receives revelation from God, that means he himself is touched, and ought to be wiser in his own opinions. Whether this happens in reality is another matter. Yes, the Mormon view is that he can have it both ways. There is the circumstance in the Doctrine and Covenants when JS prophesied something, or gave a commandment from God, and then later said it was no longer required by God. So, as the 14 Fundamentals implies, “a prophet can revelate on anything at any time and reverse it later if he wants!!” It seems that God is okay with his prophets having it both ways. I just wish there was a proclaimation to clarify an official list of true prophecies and “just opinions” there are so many that its hard for me to keep them all straight. Could we start by just saying that all of BY’s prophecies were just his opinions? f4h1
I understand there are quotes such as “A prophet is a prophet only when he is speaking as such” and second Nephi 32:3 (scripture mastery) “Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.” Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:I just wish there was a proclamation to clarify an official list of true prophecies and “just opinions” there are so many that it’s hard for me to keep them all straight.
I think F4H1 has hit the crux of it. How are we to know the difference?
“Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.”
So now the burden of proof is on the listener to find meaning, purpose, and inspiration in the words of inspired men. This will sometimes lead to the following example:
“The Spirit tells me the 14 Fundamentals are false teachings. That’s what my Church trained me to do when I come across something that requires understanding — follow the Spirit.” – Brian Johnson
I know that this is frustrating and I feel your pain. I am struggling to grow in a new reality where I must try to discern for myself and hold on to the good. I am learning to follow the spirit. My spirit seems to intuitively know, not that which is right – but that which is right for me.
Quote:So now the burden of proof is on the listener to find meaning, purpose, and inspiration in the words of inspired men.
I think this is a very important statement. In the absence of the prophet saying “The Lord told me this as official prophecy”, it’s up to the individual to decide.
The fact that we often don’t know what is prophecy and what is opinion is evidenced in the fact that GBH, when warning people to get out of debt years ago indicated that hard times were coming, ended his warning with “I’m NOT prophesying”. The fact that he felt he needed to qualify his statement as non-prophecy, just advice and opinion says it all.
Now there are many who will just believe him because of his position and the fact he said it. Funny in this case, he was dead right, as it was before the financial crisis.
Heber13 wrote:
It sounds like what you want is a detailed map from the prophet, with all the dimensions and data points exact and unchanging, and maybe the map is missing some info, but when that new info comes, it should fit right into the existing map dimensions and the map doesn’t change or get redrawn.I look at it more like the prophet sees a lighthouse…pointing us in a direction…but there are multiple ways to get there and many new perceptions of the landscape between where we are and the lighthouse. So the trick is to have confidence the prophet is leading us in a good direction, even if he is fallible and doesn’t know everything along the way.
I dont really expect any detail. I am just saying if you are not going to give detail then stop claiming divine revelation. I just see no value in a prophet claiming to be a prophet that refuses to get into the detail. I am fine with prophets saying things and giving advice but do not allude to it as divine when it may not be. I have investment counselors, teachers, friends, employers that have all given much more advice than the prophet ever has on how to conduct my life and be a better person. I can read books and learn more about the nature of God and the realities of the universe than a prophet ever tells me. So sure I will listen to the prophet and weigh what he says but not more so than any other person I trust.
Cadence wrote:So sure I will listen to the prophet and weigh what he says but not more so than any other person I trust.
IMHO, this is exactly the way it should be – that the words of the Prophet are given the weight and consideration of a knowledgeable, experienced, person that YOU trust and that also happens to be the leader of the church where you claim membership. (All this 14 foundementals hoopla aside) To give it more weight than that would be too much like abdicating responsibility for your actions and can lead to some really scary places.I listened to a mormon podcast yesterday, where it was stated that this is the GREATEST mormon apologetic argument EVER invented. EVER. It makes the church look like the one true church on the face of the earth when they get it right, and they have an easy out when they get it wrong – they are just men speaking their own opinion. BS!
So all this time BY was just speaking his personal opinion about the Adam God theory? Come on.
The prophets are pretty wise men, and I listen to them when they speak. But I don’t have ANY allusions they are in direct communion with god anymore than the next guy. We have NO IDEA when they are talking as men or prophets, when they are speaking for god or for mammon, so I will put everything they say through my personal revelation filter, and see how it comes out. I can tell you, Oaks Two Lines of Communication and the 14 Fs, didn’t make it, didn’t make it into my personal theological beliefs tank. Those two talks were personal opinion, IMO.
The church wants it both ways. It works just fine for 85% of the active members. It’s us poor StayLDSers and NOM sons of bitches who will be the ones who will always be getting shot up in the cross fire. Find cover boys, find cover.
What about the statement that Apostles have seen Christ? Their repeated statements that they are special witnesses of Christ? I have always taken that with a grain of salt, particularly since we were counseled in one conference talk never to ask an Apostle if they have seen Christ. I know the logic — it’s sacred so we don’t go up asking things like that. But at the same time, it sounds like an easy out. There was one lesson I attended where someone reportedly asked an Apostle if the other Apostles have seen Christ. The person asked the question said “If they haven’t, it’s their own fault”. Which implies that some have not. Must be terrible walking around with everyone believing you have seen Christ when you haven’t. What cognitive dissonance must be at work!!!
Anyway, I’m not convinced they have seen Christ necessarily, and I can’t ask them, so I will never know.
SD, fwiw, I really hate anecdotal stories shared about church leaders by others – like what you described happening in the lesson you mentioned. If the internet has taught us anything, it’s that people will spread all sorts of crap in the name of (fill in the blank) – and it’s why the leadership of the church has asked members on more than one occasion to stop passing on rumors about what apostles and seventies supposedly said that are not verifiable. It’s hard enough sometimes dealing with what some actually do say without adding things they don’t say.
😈 Even Joseph Smith never claimed to have SEEN Christ or had a VISITATION of Christ. He only claims to have had a vision of Christ.There are probably some on this site who could say the same. Quote:cwald…I listened to a mormon podcast yesterday, where it was stated that this is the GREATEST mormon apologetic argument EVER invented. EVER. BS!
That’s exactly what I call it!
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