Women and the church

I agree with Ray that it’s a case of a little power going to some very tiny brains, puffing them full of their own imaginary importance. You would think Europe would be more enlightened, but I’m afraid it’s not so. Many European cultures are behind where I would say the US is (Spain, Italy, and even France are probably more entrenched in traditional stereotypes and male entitlement). Northern Europe is generally more advanced in terms of equality in the workplace, but sexist men will always flourish in a patriarchy. There is certainly (at least superficial) validation for sexist views in the church. For those people who are inherently sexist, it’s easy for them to confirm their bias for their perspectives by taking a superficial view of the culture and proof-texting statements of our gerontocratic leadership.

For example, you could read the PoF as “putting women in their place” if you are sexist. Or you could read it as telling lazy male chauvinist men to help out more if you are not. Personally, I think sexism will prevail until men put a stop to it among themselves, and until women laugh it out of power. We can’t submit to it or we reinforce it. I don’t think this is a question of humility. We aren’t doing men any favors by allowing them to continue being idiots when they are. And I for one always enjoy laughing at what is ridiculous.

There is one particular area of the church in which women have it over men… dress. Men have little leeway in dress, whereas women turn up in all kinds of things for church.

That’s a good one for a whole other discussion.

Often I am referred back to D&C 121, which I almost know by heart by now. I find it hard to respond well to people who excersise unrighteous dominion, or are just chauvinistic, and are for example, the bishop of a ward. The whole wardcounsil is behind him, and they when I said something contrary, or even pointed out the paragraph in the handbook that he really was wrong, he laughed in my face!

Still see this happen in other wards as well. Puts me off real bad, and I don’t see a change in the youth in this as well. And you would think they would be more emancipated!

I though right now am trying as a woman to go to the Temple for the First time, and am really up in arms about just a few phrases. (specifically Priestess to husband not God, Hearken to Husband as He hearkens to the Lord, Give yourself to Husband but he doesn’t give himself to me, Give him your name, but he doesn’t give me his name, And the whole vieling of women’s faces in the temple, I had a dream about this I count as revelation, and I just don’t think I can viel my face at all) Please help me!,

Sorry Wonderingcurrent that I don’t have any good answers for you. My sister asked why women have the veils in the temple and I could only come up with Paul’s writings about it being shameful for women to have heads uncovered, but it probably goes back much further than that (I believe OT Jacob was duped into marrying Leah instead of Rachel because Leah wore a veil).

And I also believe Adam didn’t have the priesthood to begin with, that the Priesthood was only organized after wickedness entered the world. Adam gave sacrifices with his wife Eve, meaning that what we call the Priesthood now, probably had a far different name and meaning, before wickedness entered the world. Meaning that I don’t think she just assisted, but I think she had an integral part in it. Far more then we know, but we could (and I digress, that could be another thread)

I also don’t know much about the origins of priesthood in the Adamic sense but I did observe that after the fall in the temple movie Eve seems to go mute, of course that could just be that she didn’t have any more lines to say and not doctrinally significant at all. :think:

Just a question about veiling. Does it only happen with in the circle or does every woman have to veil their face during that prayer? Would that be a good time to take a bathroom break?

If I were you, I would try to get through your barrier mentally. I can’t imagine that there would be any strict prohibition against bathroom breaks, but it sure seems like an awfully conspicuous time to declare the need to relieve yourself – especially as a self endowment. You might want to send a PM to Ray. He is more experienced at prepping people for the temple and he can be more explicit in private messages than in public postings.

Okay private message sent, I was kidding on the bathroom break though…not a really good joke I know.

The woman’s veil is cultural based on scriptural passages written in a time when veiling meant something. It means something now only to those for whom it means something – and I don’t mean to be glib in saying that. Other things have changed in the temple ordinances due to cultural misgivings, so I’d be totally fine with this one changing, as well.

I’m not going to advocate for changing it, since that’s WAY above my pay scale and it’s just not how I roll, but I wouldn’t shed a single tear if it was removed from the endowment. I think it’s instructive that it’s not used when the woman meets the Lord – and if it’s not necessary there (symbolically), then I would be fine eliminating it entirely.

hehehe (very nervous laughter) I pray for change all the time. Probably shouldn’t but I do, just hope I’m not the only one. Probably not, but sometimes it feels that way. Well I know of at least one other person who prays for change.

Okay now I know there is one point where all women viel their faces, great…I will probably start crying. This one hurts a lot, makes me feel less somehow, and after that dream I had, God clearly telling me he didn’t create a woman to wear a viel, I just probably will cry unless God gives me the power to with hold the tears.

Yes. Not dealing with the temple per say, but, I broke down and went to church Sunday. I had to take my 16 year old daughter out of class – she was in tears, tears streaming down her cheeks, after listening to a lesson on “priesthood” and the rules and policies about the sacrament and other ordinances. I don’t get it – why do gods care and what is so special about male genitalia? They don’t care. It’s entirely a cultural, patriatical societal system that was in place during JS time, and he just went with what he knew, IMO.

I then got in an ugly debate with the hc about women and the priesthood and how I believe there will come a time when all of gods children will have the “priesthood” much like we evolved where all men, regardless of color, could have the priesthood. Apparently talking like this is heretical and apostasy. I don’t care – especially if it is hurting my children’s self esteem and spiritual progress. The church teachings Sunday, “hurt” my daughter. Real hurt – deep spiritual hurt. Yes. Sometimes it does hurts. I have no answer. I have little hope – in the church. I come here occasionally looking and listening to those who still do.