Follow the Prophet! Need suggestions.

I would remind this person that we often stop thinking when we hear, “The prophet said xxx”, because we think we must just obey.

But when one does keep thinking, the questions are valid:

– What did the prophet actually say? (Where is it documented)

– What was the context and when was it said?

– What was the principle being taught?

The last is obviously the most important, because we are trying to learn to be better people. Anyone who uses the crutch of “The prophet said” as the basis of their argument for being “right” or “wrong” probably doesn’t realize all the things the prophets have said over time.

It sounds like the person asking the question in the email is wanting supporting quotes and documents to go back and bash the strict son-in-law and win an argument. That won’t work.

There is no winning of arguments. There are only opinions. Some opinions matter greatly, but the principles and teachings are what Christ taught that are important, not rules about ear piercings or whatever. It is a church of love, not a church of fear. That’s my opinion.

Here is the question: She has quoted to me several times that she teaches her children that “The Prophet” has stated that girls are only allowed to have one hole pierced in each ear, boys are not allowed to have pierced ears, tattoos are not allowed, and girls should not wear sleeveless tops and their clothes, from an early age, long before they go through the temple, should be designed as if they are wearing temple garments – dress length, sleeves, top length, etc. Also, “The Prophet” has stated that in order to be allowed to pass the sacrament, boys must wear either white or light blue shirts. These things are all taught by her to my grandchildren, which gives them a low opinion of their uncles who are great guys, who are crazy about their niece, but do have piercings, tattoos, and of their grandmother, who has been known to wear modest, sleeveless shirts on really hot days in our very hot part of the country, and has two holes in one of her ears.

Boy, I bet she really ate up Sister Beck’s talk, “Women Who Know,” didn’t she?

I will not go on except to say, really, my bottom line question is do you know of any edict beyond “folklore” that specifically covers the piercings, tattoos, and clothing standards she imposes on her children I mentioned? To me, this kind of thinking is part of what exhausts less conservative members and makes it so difficult to feel okay with the choices they have made in order to be able to continue activity in the church. Thank you.

I really don’t have an answer for you but I will be very interested in hearing other people’s answers since I agree with your last sentence 100%.

From Mormom: All of this feedback has been really helpful. To Piper Alpha — I have no intention of confronting my son-in-law with anything. We fought our battles and called a truce many years ago.

I was just thinking I wish there was some way to help my daughter relax and not take our different approaches to “living the gospel” so hard. I suppose I could do the same thing — but as much as she thinks she is protecting her children from “the world” by using these rigid guidelines, I think she is turning them into intolerant, narrow-minded people. I sent her a wonderful photo of one of my sons working on a project with my elderly brother and she wrote back she would probably have to hide it because of her brother, who is a very sweet, handsome young man who happens to have some body art. She said she is afraid her impressionable sons, who loved their uncles to pieces when they were younger, might think he is cool and want to be like him. It hurt my feelings and made me sad for her sons and my sons and I told her so, but she just blows it all off. She is very focused on using whatever influence she has for as long as she has it in making sure they all get their Eagle Scouts, serve missions, marry int he temple, etc., etc., etc. All good, I guess, but there just has to be some way to raise well-behaved, obedient kids who are also compassionate, empathetic and independent thinkers. She might go for the first two, but the third one seems to be out of the question. Her daughter was not even allowed to read most of the Twilight books until she was fifteen, and they were written by an LDS woman. She read them, but felt some of the subjects covered in the last couple were inappropriate for anyone younger. I digress.

Thank you Andrew for the quote from Samuel and your thoughts on cultural vs doctrinal. Although I didn’t have that very relevant scripture reference to quote, I have tried to point out that in a couple of fruitless discussions with my daughter that a lot of where our differences of opinion come from is just that area. She agreed that Samoans should be allowed to tattoo their torsos and places where earrings were part of the culture should be exceptions but balked immediately when I pointed out that in the 21st century the same argument could be made for earrings and tattoos in the Western World. This whole “the devil made me do it if I am an American” attitude. It reminds me of Owl’s (I think it was Owl) description of Winnie the Pooh stuck in Rabbit’s rabbit hole after eating too much honey: “A wedged bear in a great tightness. In a word, irremovable!” She has the best of intentions. It could be a lot worse, couldn’t it? I will find a way to introduce her children, a totally acceptable way, to the Samuel quote, maybe teaching a FHE lesson on a visit, and continue in my quiet, tired old hippie way, to present an alternative to my grandchildren, who I am great friends with.

I do intend to read Sister Beck’s Women Who Know talk, although it sounds like I’m in for it, and also want to thank whoever posted “Prayer for a Meyers -Briggs ISFJ personality type.

I am amazed at the response to my dilemma and will return daily to see what else shows up. I am still feeling somewhat discouraged by the disparity between myself and my daughter and her discouragement with same.

Great reference Heber13! Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk is spot on, AND was fairly recent. Here is a link:

http://lds.org/ensign/2009/11/the-love-of-god?lang=eng

That reminded me of a similar, even though older, link we have in our Additional Resources section of the main website.

“Bringing Humanity to the Gospel,” by Elder Stephen L Richards

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/015-43-46.pdf

Those two talks are completely from “faithful” and officially authoritative sources within the Church, and they both address this issue directly.

In my family 2 of my sisters married in the temple and 2 married non-members. After my mission I got to know my (now) wife’s family and their every son an RM, every son in-law an RM, every marriage temple sealed standard. I was able to compare and contrast the two families and our approaches.

At the time, I judged my family rather harshly. I had learned from institute that an implied part of the baptismal covenant is to commit to all further available covenants, so I felt that my sisters’ failure to get married in the temple was a betrayal of their baptismal covenants. I felt like this situation could have been avoided through daily family prayer, scripture study, a picture of the temple in our living room, and all around “serious” emphasis on the gospel. The clarity of my worldview gave me confidence.

She is very focused on using whatever influence she has for as long as she has it in making sure they all get their Eagle Scouts, serve missions, marry int he temple, etc., etc., etc.

As you may have noted I also held an internal locus of control. I felt that whenever someone’s kids went astray then it must have been traceable back to neglected FHE or other missed gospel principle. I was sure that MY kids would be successful in the gospel (the only success that really matters), if only I could raise them right.

It was only after the stillbirth of my daughter that my ability to control my surroundings came into question. My literal interpretation of the gospel followed quickly thereafter. Through it all, my family have listened, sympathized, and shown me true love.

I will find a way to introduce her children, a totally acceptable way, to the Samuel quote, maybe teaching a FHE lesson on a visit, and continue in my quiet, tired old hippie way, to present an alternative to my grandchildren, who I am great friends with.

I tell you this because I was in your daughters shoes somewhat. I would be very wary of teaching your grandchildren anything contrary to what their parents are teaching. Remember that even if your daughter found out and was inclined to let it pass, your son in-law might not be so merciful. You do not want to have visits or contact with them limited over your divergent views. If this becomes a power struggle, you will lose. I do not think you are capable of changing anyone’s mind.

I think just like any other Latter-Day Saint, it helps to teach correct principles with love, and then you have to just love and let go and let them do their thing and be there as a continued support

I would like to second Heber’s suggestion. I think it is important to defuse the tension, forget about right or wrong, and try to strengthen the relationship. If I were in your situation I think I would try to use self-deprecation and humor and say things like, “I know that I am an odd duck, but I feel there is sufficient room for me in the community of saints.” Or “I don’t know the answers to many things, I feel I did the best I could raising you and your brothers. In looking back I cling to the words of Elder Orson F. Whitney ‘Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend’” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

BTW although I have been somewhat in your daughters shoes, my kids are still little and think I walk on water, so I have yet to be in your shoes…maybe through the passage of time your daughter will be in your shoes some day. :angel:

To Roy — I am sorry about your daughter. I lost a grown son in an car accident. He was nineteen. It shakes you to your core. My daughter and son in law also lost a son. He drowned. He was five. We are very close, and I understand their vigilance. I just don’t think they understand why I don’t just step up, why I focus on my inactive sons’ positive traits rather than spending all of my energy praying they will repent, come back, or whatever. I won’t start again.

I would never try to teach my grandchildren something behind their backs! I was talking about maybe bringing the Samuel scripture up for discussion, at their house, at their family home evening, or possibly the two talks that were quoted a few posts back. I would give it all to them, or at least to my daughter who knows him well enough to judge for both of them, to read first, if they were even willing to let me give the lesson, which they might not be. My daughter knows I am okay, just wishes I were a bit more or less something or other. Same with her husband. They are good parents. They are devoted. I guess they just wish I was a little more RS. Hope springs eternal. I am more interested in them giving me some credit, or just relaxing and not always worrying about how open- minded I am. I voted for OBama! Now if that isn’t proof there is something wrong with me, I don’t know what is? I don’t want to change them, just want them to stop wishing I would change. The description of your approach to raising a family sounded very much like my daughter and her husband, and I sure do appreciate your taking the time out of your day to share with me. It helped. Thank you.

ANYTHING said or written by Chieko Okazaki is gold-plated Gospel to me. LOVE that lady!! If ever there was a modern-day prophetess in a leadership position in the recent Church, Sis. Okazaki was it – and Pres. Beck has impressed me in many ways, as well.