The Spirit ?

GBSmith — when I was a full-time missionary, and afterwards, I have been told repeatedly that I have a gift of teaching with the Spirit. I have discovered there are a number of attitudes that tend to create that spiritual atmosphere which touches the spiritual emotions.

You have touched on three of them in this simple exercise you experienced. The first is expressions of humility toward God with the “with God’s help” component of their recitation. One of the most powerful ways of bringing the Spirit into a meeting, for me, was to verbalize phrases from a prayer of humility that affirm that God is in control, and that I am dependent on him. Consistently, this would bring tears to the eyes of the people in the meeting, particularly when training teachers and missionaries. It was highly predictable.

Second are statements of belief, which was also present here. The words “I Believe” carries a power that tends to transmit to other people in the room — particularly when these beliefs are regarding belief in the power of God, the ability of the human spirit to triumph over adversity, or the hope of a better world. I think the minister harnessed this principle in his exercise.

Third are expressions of sacrifice. When you speak in front of a crowd and describe the sacrifices that people have made for a higher purpose, this also tends to create spiritual emotion. I think there was an element of this when the congregation expressed their commitment to believe in God.

And I’m glad you brought this up because it has raised a couple insights. I actually COULDN’T REMEMBER the techniques I used to apply when teaching the gospel when I read your post. I knew that I had that gift of teaching at one time, but had completely forgotten how I used to apply it until I sat down and thought long and hard to retrieve my ideas. Perhaps I’ve lost that gift through inward less-activity? Thanks for the insight by your posting here. I think I need to review how I used to apply that gift years ago so I don’t forget how I used to do it!!!

Second, the exercise that you present here sounds very much like the kind of audience participation we see in other sacred places in the Church. However, I have never felt that spiritual emotion attached to it there — perhaps because it’s scripted. Not sure what this means, but I see a parallel between your experience in the protestant Church service you describe and LDS experiences in highly sacred buildings.

Yes, it was the Spirit – which, we are told, testifies of truth and right, no matter where it is found.

We (all of us, LDS or not) tend to limit the Spirit far too much, I believe.

I thought it might be interesting for you to read the full text. I appreciate the comments.

The Renewal of Baptismal Vows

Celebrant: Do you reaffirm your renunciation of evil and

renew your commitment to Jesus Christ?

People: I do.

Celebrant: Do you believe in God the Father?

People: I believe in God, the Father almighty,

creator of heaven and earth.

Celebrant: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

People: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit

and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,

was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended to the dead.

On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven,

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Celebrant: Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?

People: I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.

Celebrant: Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and

fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the

prayers?

People: I will, with God’s help.

Celebrant: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever

you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?

People: I will, with God’s help.

Celebrant: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good

News of God in Christ?

People: I will, with God’s help.

Celebrant: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving

your neighbor as yourself?

People: I will, with God’s help.

Celebrant: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people,

and respect the dignity of every human being?

People: I will, with God’s help.

May Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who

has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and

bestowed upon us the forgiveness of sins, keep us in eternal

life by his grace, in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen.

Thanks for sharing, GB. That sounds like a beautiful service and practice.

On Thursday, I went to a noon hour Maundy Thursday service at a Lutheran Church. At one point, the pastor had all attendants approach the front area and kneel. the then went around, placing his hands on each head, saying, “By the commandment of Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins.” It was very different from what I’m used to as a lifelong Mormon, and as i watched it happen to several others I had mixed feelings. Then those words were uttered to me and I felt God’s love at that very moment.

I understand our need to be unique and separate in many ways from other Christian traditions, but I think we’ve given up many beautiful and powerful rituals in the process.

It really seems to me like the church with all of it’s gazillion rules and cultural traditions and commandments, and all the focus on temple recommends and prophets and obedience and such, are so much of a distraction that I can’t focus on what is really important and great about the gospel anymore.

This is how I feel, too.

In the rite I service for the episcopal church this is the general confession. It comes before the eucharist, I suppose, so that those who partake can do so worthily.

Let us confess our sins unto Almighty God.

Silence may be kept

Minister and People

Most merciful God,

we confess that we have sinned against thee

in thought, word, and deed,

by what we have done,

and by what we have left undone.

We have not loved thee with our whole heart;

we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.

We are truly sorry and we earnestly repent.

For the sake of thy Son Jesus Christ,

have mercy on us and forgive us;

that we may delight in thy will,

and walk in thy ways,

to the glory of thy Name. Amen.

or this

Almighty and most merciful father,

we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep,

we have followed too much the devices and desires of our

own hearts,

we have offended against thy holy laws,

we have left undone those things which we ought to

have done,

and we have done those things which we ought not to

have done.

But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us,

spare thou those who confess their faults,

restore thou those who are penitent,

according to thy promises declared unto mankind

in Christ Jesus our Lord;

and grand, O most merciful Father, for his sake,

that we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life,

to the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

The Bishop when present, or the Priest, stands and says

The Almighty and merciful Lord grant you absolution and

remission of all your sins, true repentance, amendment of

life, and the grace and consolation of his Holy Spirit. Amen.

My sense is that when people go in to talk with their bishop about unresolved sins their expectation is that he’ll forgive them since he’s seen as a judge. It still comes down to whether the penitent truly is sorry, has fully confessed and wants to make a change. I see it almost as a limit on God’s power that He wants to forgive us by Christ’s atonement but it’s for us to make the final decision whether or not to accept the forgiveness.

I find it interesting that we can look at different services or rituals, and break them down logically to whether they make sense to us or not (forgiveness of sins by this method or that method), but…when a person has an experience, to that person it is a real spiritual experience. It is just hard to know what it means. Does that mean that ritual is truth? That church we were in when we felt it is truth? That God is pleased with us and our mindset?

I have no answers for those questions, only that I believe those experiences GBSmith and Andrew had are real and are from the Spirit, and I appreciate hearing those stories. Thanks for sharing.

It just occurred to me — that in the mormon world, if one drinks coffee or tea, they are denied a temple recommend which they must have to get the ordinances REQUIRED to receive exaltation and salvation in the highest kingdom.

Really?

Perhaps we as mormons should be VERY VERY careful about how we scrutinize other religions view of forgiveness and requirements for salvation because our beliefs are way out there in the common sense arena. I mean, I think Ray is correct about it being a goofy belief – but, our religion is chuck full of them too. It’s becoming more and more apparent that all religions are majorly flawed.