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Just came across this about John Dehlin-that he has left the church? http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/28352/ I read he was inactive in his own words:
Post April 12, 2011
John Dehlin here. And yes…I’ve mentioned in a few places now that I’m no longer active in the church. It brings me no joy to admit this, but it’s true.
Nothing caused this other than a gradual feeling that full church activity wasn’t really worth the time/effort any more (cost/benefit analysis), and feeling really uncomfortable from an integrity/honesty perspective about “looking” like active, believing members when we didn’t feel that way inside (I know…I know…many of you warned me that this would happen, and saw this coming long before I did).
Anyway, we just got worn down over time, I think.
For me, the “LDS Restoration” (as in God restoring the “one true church with exclusive priesthood authority”) is just not a credible narrative….and my wife and I can no longer pretend like (or appear like) we think it is. I don’t even think we WANT it to be “true” at this point — we’re much more universalistic in our beliefs.
Part of us would enjoy being active…and I still generally enjoy going to sacrament meeting…but the cog-diss has become too great for us.
If the church were to send out some type of communication indicating that NOMs were fully legitimate/welcome in church (as vocal participants), and that they could have temple recommends (I know…crazy), I would consider re-activating…but I’m not holding my breath on that one.
I don’t know. But some of the comments made me ill. And some of the comments made me proud. Some made me angry. Perhaps the comments that stuck out to me the most was, and I paraphrase, “if there is no place for John in the church, what does that mean for me?” And, “How many folks are going to follow John out? The church should be begging John to stay because of how many members they will lose…”
I hope John finds peace, and I hate to see all this extra pressure coming from NOMs and StayLDSers for him to stay. If he has decided that he can no longer follow the middle way path – than he needs to do what is best for himself and his family.
Really, I mean, I have it some too to a lesser extent, like, if I leave, who in the branch is going to follow me? I don’t think anyone needs that kind of additional responsibility or pressure put on them when they are truly trying to find their own peace and pathway. We are all on our own – and responsible for our own choices and path.
I agree with this, and if it doesn’t happen, my days in the church are numbers. Quote:If the church were to send out some type of communication indicating that NOMs were fully legitimate/welcome in church (as vocal participants), and that they could have temple recommends (I know…crazy), I would consider re-activating…but I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Yes, it’s true. That doesn’t mean by any stretch that John has become a flaming ex-mormon. Please consider: bridget_night wrote:For me, the “LDS Restoration” (as in God restoring the “one true church with exclusive priesthood authority”) is just not a credible narrative….and my wife and I can no longer pretend like (or appear like) we think it is. I don’t even think we WANT it to be “true” at this point — we’re much more universalistic in our beliefs.
I completely identify with this. Since my 2003 epiphany I have felt exactly as John describes above. It is true that I am LDS and Mormon (slightly different). But when you feel this way, continued participation boils down to doing what in the end will make you a happier, stronger, more spiritual angel of the Father in this world. And if active participation is a net negative on this world, it’s hard to justify being very active. I’ve been to LDS services at least 90% of the Sundays in 2011, though I’m thinking that may be a big too heavy in the long run. On the other hand, I let my recommend expire in June 2010, and I will likely get it renewed again within a few months just for fun.
So I wouldn’t take this to mean John is no longer Mormon. In fact, we could probably say he is still an uber-active Mormon. I wouldn’t take this to mean he is no longer LDS, either. He simply is not active at this time. Isn’t that something we all can support?
You know what’s so odd is that I became “much more universalistic in [my] beliefs” as a result of studying the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I can post so many quotes by these and other early LDS leaders that support a universalist approach but most church members I know simply can’t reconcile this approach with their black and white beliefs. The gospel (or pure mormonism as Ray calls it) actually allows for a much bigger tent and an infinitely more merciful interpretation than the one we commonly hear/teach.
John’s departure is a tragedy for the church.
mercyngrace wrote:You know what’s so odd is that I became “much more universalistic in [my] beliefs” as a result of studying the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.I can post so many quotes by these and other early LDS leaders that support a universalist approach but most church members I know simply can’t reconcile this approach with their black and white beliefs. The gospel (or pure mormonism as Ray calls it) actually allows for a much bigger tent and an infinitely more merciful interpretation than the one we commonly hear/teach.
John’s departure is a tragedy for the church.
YES!!!!! Now we are building some common ground.
🙂 What we have today, is pretty well a cultural and traditional “commandment” organization, which, I think JS is rolling in his grave by what we have become . JS was the ultimate NOM, the ultimate “middle way”, the ultimate individual pathway member. I mean, the entire church was founded on the principle of tolerance and questioning of the established authority and creed.
Now what do we have? Conformity, orthodoxy, obedience, about a thousand “man-made” rules and commandments, and the whole 14Fs and the two lines of communication. It’s a damn shame.
Notice John said he is not active anymore (and, based on everything else, I read that in the traditional “attends every week” sense) and that he still generally enjoys sacrament meeting. Iow, he’s still struggling with lots of things (like he has for years), but his activity level has dropped.
That doesn’t surprise me at all, and it doesn’t even bother me very much. If he ever leaves formally and starts to fight the Church, that would be different. As it is, he’s still trying to figure it all out. I support that fully, even though it’s not the path I’ve chosen for myself.
Good point Ray. I also have thoughts on the idea that regular activity makes it appear that you believe specific things. I struggled with that idea for a time, but have concluded that what I do really has no bearing on “presumed connected” ideas or beliefs. I go to church and enjoy it. What that means is I enjoy participating in church — you cannot realistically extrapolate additional specific beliefs from that information reliably. I recognize that some people may make connections improperly, that is not my problem. If anyone asks me specifically about my belief in an exclusively ordained church on earth that everyone must ultimately follow or be damned, I will freely explain that God has not given me that understanding. It has to do with my concept of personal revelation being personal == I can obtain the answer that the church is right for ME; I canNOT receive revelation about what anyone else is supposed to do.
To think that my activity says I believe everyone else in the world lives without any authority from God is preposterous …in my view.
Orson wrote:Good point Ray.
I also have thoughts on the idea that regular activity makes it appear that you believe specific things. I struggled with that idea for a time, but have concluded that what I do really has no bearing on “presumed connected” ideas or beliefs. I go to church and enjoy it. What that means is I enjoy participating in church — you cannot realistically extrapolate additional specific beliefs from that information reliably. I recognize that some people may make connections improperly, that is not my problem. If anyone asks me specifically about my belief in an exclusively ordained church on earth that everyone must ultimately follow or be damned, I will freely explain that God has not given me that understanding. It has to do with my concept of personal revelation being personal == I can obtain the answer that the church is right for ME; I canNOT receive revelation about what anyone else is supposed to do.
To think that my activity says I believe everyone else in the world lives without any authority from God is preposterous …in my view.
I really like what you said Orson. Like in my case for example. I still believe in some of the lds teachings even though I am not active in the lds faith right now. I truly believe I am where I am suppose to be right now (in other churches) and that God has led me to non lds people I am supposed to meet in this life. For example, I met a single young woman in the Nazerene church recently who felt a strong connection to me. We got to talking and I found out she has a same-sex attraction. I had been open in class about my gay son and how much we love him and that made her feel comfortable around me. She was upset because the female teacher in our Wed. night Bible study class made a statement about homosexuality being the only sin that God hates. I told her that was not true biblically and that I was going to correct the teacher on it. This young lady has been anquishing for sometime now about whether God loved her and if God would approve of her living a gay life. She told me that the thought of having sex with a man was so unnatural and disgusting to her (and she has had boyfriends before).
I told her that my son had a boyfriend and he has never been happier and that we accepted our son’s relationship. I told her I would pray with her about this. Well, on a gay/Christian forum I belong to I connect with a man who belongs to a local gay affirming church in my area. I tell him about this young lady and he invites us to visit his church. So last Sunday we did. The minute this young lady steps in the church and is greeted by this man and the other members and the pastor and her spouse, this young woman gets goose pumps and says she is feeling the holy spirit so strong. The goose pumps and this feeling does not leave her the entire meeting. As she saw other same-sex couples so happy and affectionate towards each other in this church she felt that God approved of them and approved of her being gay. The people were warm, geninune and loved the Lord.
So, the point you made Orson about what may be true for one person, might not be true or right for John or another person makes sense to me.
cwald wrote:if I leave, who in the branch is going to follow me?
With that frumpy, unhappy look … not many!
(lol avitar)
bridget_night wrote:This young lady has been anquishing for sometime now about whether God loved her and if God would approve of her living a gay life. She told me that the thought of having sex with a man was so unnatural and disgusting to her (and she has had boyfriends before).
I told her that my son had a boyfriend and he has never been happier and that we accepted our son’s relationship. I told her I would pray with her about this. Well, on a gay/Christian forum I belong to I connect with a man who belongs to a local gay affirming church in my area. I tell him about this young lady and he invites us to visit his church. So last Sunday we did. The minute this young lady steps in the church and is greeted by this man and the other members and the pastor and her spouse, this young woman gets goose pumps and says she is feeling the holy spirit so strong. The goose pumps and this feeling does not leave her the entire meeting. As she saw other same-sex couples so happy and affectionate towards each other in this church she felt that God approved of them and approved of her being gay. The people were warm, geninune and loved the Lord.
Thanks for sharing Bridget, I too feel that God loves this young person and I am overjoyed that you were able to share His love and support with her. You made a difference!
Thanks Roy, I am so glad you can understand what a difficult trial this would be for any person. Instead of feeling inferior now she said I have helped her to see how noble and special she is that God would trust her with such a trial in this life. So many think someone chooses this life but if they only understood the hell they have to go through being such a minority they would know that no one would choose this. Your support and understanding is very appreciated Roy.
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