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  • #205963
    Anonymous
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    I have a problem I’d like to pose for discussion. It gets to the heart of balancing individual needs with the needs of the larger organization. I would like to see what your thoughts are.

    Assume you are a Stake President in an area of the world where a totalitarian government has risen to power. Dictatorial, cruel, and intolerant of dissenters, it engages regularly in witch-hunts for citizens who espouse ideals that run counter to the social engineering and general political philosophies of the government. It tolerates religion, but only to the extent that these religions “behave themselves”. If the religion is at odds with the government, then its members are labelled traitors, tried in court, and either killed or imprisoned indefinitely. The organization itself is stripped of its assets and right to assemble and associate.

    Precedents have been set. Although an organization may well have kept itself in good standing with the totalitarian government, there have been instances where individual members of the organization have spoken out in a non-religious capacity, against the government. This has led to invasive investigations of the person’s associations, friends, acquaintances, and subsequently, harsh actions against anyone associated with the outspoken person. In fact, their behavior has thrown suspiscion on even benign organizations to which they belong, leading to further witch-hunts within these organizations, suffering for its members, and in some cases, extinguishing these organizations altogether — all due to their remote association with members of their organization who spoke out against the evil, totalitarian government. Organizations who have survived such ordeals have done so by open affirmations of the totalitarian government, public repudiation of the “treasonous” actions of their members, including stripping them of their membership (not mere disfellowshipment), and launching communications to their remaining members about supporting the totalitarian government.

    So far, the Church has managed a peaceable but uneasy relationship with the totalitarian government. The Article of Faith indicating “We believe in the obeying the laws of the land” helps, as we are perceived as supportive of the government’s legislation, although the members and leaders unanimously find the government evil.

    Now, the problem. A prominent Elder/member of the Church has been engaging in organizing a quiet newspaper campaign against the government on humanitarian grounds, which are perfectly consistent with the gospel. He has sent literature to foreign newspapers and magazines describing atrocities enacted by these governments in hopes of swaying international opinion, and inspiring action. He has enlisted other members of the Ward in his efforts, outside of any Church auxiliary. Never, at any time, did he try to connect the Church to his actions, or implicate the Church in any way. He simply happens to be a member of the Church who is also a political activist, driven privately by his gospel-oriented conscience.

    The member has been caught by the totalitarian government, as has his group of member cohorts in the Ward. He has been executed and labelled a traitor. It is a foregone conclusion that investigations of members of the Ward will occur next. Ward membership lists will have to be given up to the totalitarian government, interviews will be conducted, and the Church will face the same demise as other organizations who have members that have defied the government.

    If you were the Stake President, how would you proceed with respect to the prominent member’s Church membership? Would you hold a Church disciplinary council? After hearing the evidence that he had in fact defied the government, and is therefore considered a traitor, would you excommunicate? Knowing full well the prominent member was actually acting for the forces of good given the atrocities and evil orientation of the totalitarian government, and was in compliance with all aspects of the temple recoommend questions?

    How would you resolve this conflict between the needs of this individual to be treated fairly by the Church, and the widespread harm that will likely come to the Church in that area, and perhaps in the nation, if this brother is NOT excommunicated?

    #244038
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I think as a leader of the church, I’d have to hold disciplinary councils, and cooperate with the government to identify and excommunicate any members participating in illegal activities. As a stake or ward, we’d need to focus on teaching members to use better judgment and how to function as a faithful LDS within the bounds the country allows.

    …and then I’d move to the United States.

    #244039
    Anonymous
    Guest

    What about the needs of the individual….do you think that excommunicating him for this is fitting given the widespread knowledge of the evil government? Also, what impact might this have on the testimonies of his immediate family when really, this person lived and believed the gospel, and was simply trying to do what is best for humanity?

    #244040
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Obviously, this is referring to Helmut Hubener and the Nazi regime.

    Personally, I’m sorry that Hubener was excommunicated, but I absoutely can sympathize with the Church’s decision. If they failed to excommunicate him in that situation, they risked the real threat of seeing all the other members killed (immediately or in concentration camps). In that situation, I think I would have gone ahead with the excommunication – hoping to be able to rescind it later, as happened.

    This is the same reason given for the Manifesto (that the Church would be destroyed otherwise), and it is at the root of the reason for the lifting of the Prieshtood ban, I believe (that the work would have ground to a halt in Brazil and never gotten off the ground in Africa, to name only a few impact areas).

    Hubener’s is an extreme case, and I don’t like excommunciation generally, but I do think there are legitimate situations where it absolutely is warranted – even in less extreme cases.

    There is a concurrent thread over on By Common Consent by Aaron R. about excommunciation, if anyone wants to read it, as well. I think it is thought-provoking.

    “The Limits of Community” (http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/05/17/the-limits-of-community/)

    #244041
    Anonymous
    Guest

    SilentDawning wrote:

    How would you resolve this conflict between the needs of this individual to be treated fairly by the Church, and the widespread harm that will likely come to the Church in that area, and perhaps in the nation, if this brother is NOT excommunicated?

    Cwald wrote:

    One of the sections I have highlighted in the How To StayLDS article says something to the effect, “only you can prevent organizational abuse. Only you can prevent the church from taking advantage of you.” If the church is taking advantage of you – stop it. (easier said than done, right?)

    I was unaware of Helmut Hubener but it sounds fascinating. I was thinking about Bro. Lee and how he was not only excommunicated but later executed for his role in MMM. My wife is descended from a couple that refused polygamy, joined the RLDS, and were exed. From what I understand, in all three cases the blessings were later restored post-death.

    I believe there are many levels of organizational abuse (death from a thousand cuts), but the potential for excommunication is the big gun in the Church.

    My sister was a student of one of the September 6. This teacher reportedly said that the Church is as earthen vessels. The vessels are hard and lumpy and brown, but inside is the living water – that moves and quickens and invigorates. My sister admired this teacher and took this message to heart. The teacher was exed for compiling essays on feminism within Mormonism.

    A good Bishop friend of mine relayed to me the story of a friend of his (I know, a friend of a friend) who had been misunderstood (I don’t know the details but I assume she must have published something controversial) and exed. After much effort at appeal, continued humility and refusal to go to the press etc., the excommunication was overturned.

    I can only imagine how that might feel….to have all your ordinances gone, your sealings gone, your connection to the priesthood and God’s church gone, to be shunned by former friends and even some family.

    So, IMHO, organizational abuse up to and including excommunication is a virtual certainty for someone, somewhere, sometime. To be fair, I believe that all organizations suffer from “organizational abuse” and that there is always the dichotomy of the needs of the individual vs. the needs of the group. To the degree that the needs of the group usurp the needs of the individual organizational abuse exists.

    Cwald wrote:

    One of the sections I have highlighted in the How To StayLDS article says something to the effect, “only you can prevent organizational abuse. Only you can prevent the church from taking advantage of you.” If the church is taking advantage of you – stop it. (easier said than done, right?)

    I think an important question that anyone facing the aftermath of an excommunication must ask his/herself is: How does this affect my relationship with God?

    #244042
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    My sister was a student of one of the September 6. This teacher reportedly said that the Church is as earthen vessels. The vessels are hard and lumpy and brown, but inside is the living water – that moves and quickens and invigorates. My sister admired this teacher and took this message to heart.

    What an amazing analogy Roy. I love it. My own experience with the local leadership when I wanted to serve a mission is a classic example of this….the the leadership behaved as the earthen, lumpy brown guardians of the temporal side of the Church, with the members who eventually reached out to help me a year later being the living water that breathed life into my testimony. THEY were the ones that acted as the Great Equalizer that met the needs of the individual, when the organization saw only their own aims.

    I think this analogy suggests the aspects of my own personal experience that should be focused upon, and those aspects that should be forgotten. Stop focusing on the lumpy earthen vessel (the uninspired leaders at the time) and stay focused on the living water (the members who helped me). In fact, BE the living water to help quench the thirst of others. It’s a brilliant thought…

    But back to Hubener — I feel that this was a good example of the Church meeting both the needs of the individual and its own aims at the same time. The kind of creative contradiction my idealistic self thought would permeate everything the Church did. You might argue the Church only reversed Hubener’s excommunication to avoid appearing to have supported the Nazis after the War was over, but I give the benefit of the doubt — that they had the needs of Hubener at heart.

    #244043
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I agree with Ray, and I’m glad I’ll never have to make a terrible choice like that.

    #244044
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Well, it appears some new facts have arisen (provided you trust Wikipedia) that I wasn’t aware of regarding Helmuth Hubener.

    Even though it doesn’t appear his excommunication and subsequent reinstatement was the beautifully orchestrated, intelligent synergy I thought it was, in the end it looks like it was just….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hubener

    I read a novel based on his life called The Boy Who Dared some time ago and it was quite interesting….

    Also, Roy’s analogy of the Church as the brown, lumpy vessel in which the living water exists has been occupying my mind regularly the last day or so…..and I have now settled on my own response to the statement:

    “The Church is perfect but the people aren’t”. For me, it’s

    “The Church isn’t perfect, but the rank and file members can be absolutely inspiring”.

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