17 Miracles

What I have said I know to be true; but seeing you are to go forward, I will go with you, will help all I can, will work with you, will rest with you, and if necessary, will die with you. May God in his mercy bless and preserve us.

What a quote!

There’s a complexity in it that is powerful and really resonates with me. Thanks for sharing it, MH.

I find it somewhat troubling that this story gets brought up as inspiring. It was a disaster from the get go. Not to diminish the struggles and pain of those involved but it should be an example of poor judgement not inspired faith. It is not like everyone is running around claiming the exploits of the Donner party are all good. It is basically the same story with similar results (except the cannibalism) and everyone looks at it as a tragedy. The fact remains that in any troubling situation there are going to be those who gain from the experience and those who do not. In this case those who did not died. I can say if God wanted to give us a truly faith promoting event they would have all made it to Salt Lake by a miraculous event, not died on the prairie.

I watched the movie on DVD. I did appreciate the way they portrayed the bad decisions, as you mentioned Mheretic, but much of the movie I found difficult to watch. I was a little troubled by the idea that was strongly promoted – that God will intervene in miraculous ways to help us with our difficulties if we have enough faith. That idea to me can be destructive when some people are not “rescued” after they demonstrate great faith. The risk is that they then condemn themselves because their “faith was not great enough.” Or just as bad they may develop an alternate story of what happened to produce a miracle as it happened in their mind. Perhaps this is an issue that contributed to my crisis – as a child I heard tellings of events that I witnessed, and the telling was more miraculous than what I had remembered.

I don’t find the story faith promoting in the least. I see it as a tradegy that could have been prevented had people used common sense and listened to the spirit, rather than following the concepts of the 14 Fundalmentals of the prophet. Levi states in his journal that the people knew it was dangerous, but went anyway because W. Richards told them to, and he was an apostle.

I wasn’t going to comment on this thread, but Doug stating he admired and would like to have known Levi Savage, I just couldn’t resist.

Here is what I wrote about this over at NOM last week.

I received the movie, and Levi Savage’s journal for Christmas from my parents. My youngest son is named Levi Savage Wald. —- obviously my family has an invested interest in the story as well as roots. Smile I think it is like 4 great grandpas deep.

I have not watched the movie yet. I did read the entire journal.

I’ve heard the story my entire life, and I’m interested to see how it plays out on the screen.

fwiw —- I have read Levi’s personal journal. The guy was as die-hard TBM as they come. He spoke at BY and John Taylor’s funeral, and I believe WW as well. He was in the St. George 70’s presidency for 50 some years, and spent two stints in jail for polygamy. VERY VERY TBM, and pretty well his entire journal is about his dealings with his callings and marriages.

Now, what you won’t hear in the movie, and what I never knew growing up is a little nugget that I learned from reading the journal last week. Levi had four wives. His first wife died in Illinois. After he got to Utah, he married gal, a widow, who had two daughters, age 10 and 8. And, as I’m sure you know what I’m going to say…nine years later he married both of his step daughters at age 19 and 17. The guy married his own step daughters! Him and his three wives lived together in a small cabin in St. George for about 60 years.

Do they tell you that at the end of the movie? Why am I 41 years old and just learning the truth about the guy I named my son after? Talk about white washed history and family legends and myths.

…………………………..

Well, I watched the movie tonight. Not much positive to say about it. Pretty damn depressing.

As far as Levi Savage being vilified for questioning the trip in the first place, here is what he said about it in his own words from his journal.

Quote:

August 13, 1856 …The lateness of the season was my only objection to leaving this point for the mountains at this time…I spoke truth, and the people, judging from appearances and expressions, felt the force of it. However, the most of them determined to go forward, if the authorities say go…Elder Willey then spoke again in reply to what I had said. He said that the God that he served was a God that was able to save to the utermost. He said that was the God that he served, and he wanted no Job’s comforters with him…I told him that what I said was nothing but the truth and he knew it…

August 15, 1856 ….Elder Kimble addressed Saints, exhorting them to go forward regardless of the consequences.

September 13, 1856 …Very unexpected of me, I perceived a meeting of the saints was called, not in the campground as usual, but a short distance away, I supposed it was for prayer. Brother Richards commenced to speak, and I soon perceived that the meeting was called in consequence of the wrong impression made by my expressing myself so freely at Florence concerning our crossing the plains so late in the season. The impression left was that I condemned the handcart scheme, which is very wrong….Also, the meeting was called, more particular in consequence of someone, unknown to me, informing Bro. Richards of my disagreeable words that took place between brother Wiley and me…Bro. Richards reprimanded me sharply. Brother Willey said that I had manifested a bad spirit from Iowa City….”

Brother Richards exact words were recorded in another journal, and the account from the movie is pretty accurate where it says he told Levi Savage to “not question or council God, or his authorized servants, and to stop relying on the wisdom of men and the strength of the flesh…”

At the end of the movie, they mention that Levi Savage married Ann Cooper, a member of the Willey handcart company. They conveniently leave out the fact that he also went on to marry and have children with Ann Cooper’s two daughters ten years later.

I agree that the overall storyline should be about the terrible consequences of blindly following uninspired council, but I still love the quote by Brother Savage.

Yes, that is certainly the silver lining of the whole story. There is good in the story, like the people who sacrificed for others and how so many of the young fathers gave their food to their kids and wives, and then basically worked themselves to death for the sake of their families.

But, and a big but, to make this a story about following leaders and be willing to die for the sake of being obedient…which is what we usually hear in regards to this tragedy, is not a good message. I don’t think the movie gave that message…but those of us who know the story from SS and the manuals…yeah, that is the message.

i think levi was cool anyway. Way cool. And, I like Woody Allen as well…

I find it imprudent to judge the man on the situation with Ann Cooper and her daughters — judging by today’s standards, he did what woody allen did, exactly, except they were all still living together, and apparently had ann’s consent. true? I’m not a student of this. Jefferson is absolutely my hero, and yet, Sally Hemmings as a black slave girl of 14 accompanied him to paris with her father, Jefferson’s chef. It was likely a close-knit household, and by her early 20s, sally was a mother to Jefferson’s children, while still a slave. Ok… whatever.

Levi was completely cool — spoke the truth, got beat up for it, stayed loyal to the end. He had character, integrity, courage — all the characteristics of a hero.

You know my fathers family was catholic…they waited and took airplanes and cars to go cross country…no one ever writes stories about them.

Cwald,

Love the stories…and yes they could be sold to penthouse. :crazy: