- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’m going to apologize for making this introduction long, but I appreciate finding a forum like this and the support you provide. After reading so many other posts and then reading my introduction I think my experiences will sound very familiar. I have been LDS all of my life. My parents were Catholic and joined the Church in South America and migrated to the US in 1967. We all became citizens and I am proud to be an American. I grew up with very traditional teachings of the Church, i.e., my youth teachers teaching from Mormon Doctrine, the church is the only true church, etc. I grew up back east and I was always in a religious minority. In many ways it brought our small ward together and I was more converted to a community than doctrine.
My parents became quite inactive and divorced when I was 16 and I latched onto the church for stability. We didn’t have any relatives in the US and the whole concept of a ward family helped me through my teenage years. I went on a mission, married in the temple and graduated from BYU.
My earliest questions about the church happened on my mission. I put a lot of doubts on the shelf and took my leaders advice to live by faith on questions that did not have clear answers. I worked hard on my mission but I don’t want to say that my mission was the best two years of my life; in fact, it was the hardest thing I ever did.
My wife is a very devout Mormon. She comes from pioneer stock with some of her great grandparents being polygamists. We raised a family in the church and I have had all kinds of callings – various teaching positions, YM, counselor in the bishopric, etc. I have paid my tithing faithfully and we have been sealed in the temple.
There are probably two things that started the dominos to start falling for me. One was my Marine son coming back from Iraq and blasting us about the church. He had spent a lot of time on anti-Mormon web sites and for him the whole church crashed down. In an attempt to help I started to research as many of the questions he brought up but many of the answers didn’t really satisfy me. The other experience was reading Rough Stone Rolling.
In retrospect, I think I have had my doubts for many years and these two events were just the catalyst that made me really confront what I believed in. For the last three years I have not accepted callings and attended church about once a month. We moved to a new ward and I am currently a project to my new bishop. Our bishop is a good man and I tried talking to him about my doubts but he does not seem to understand at all. I can’t blame him however, ten years ago I would have looked at someone like myself and probably just have been critical of them.
I wonder if there is a God, if Jesus Christ was real and I’m pretty much doubting everything I have previously believed in. I’m glad that there are some support web sites out there and other people the same. For many years, I just felt like something was wrong with me. I don’t want to visit anti-Mormon web sites and deal with all the negativity. I tried joining a local Mormonstories support organization. They are going to have a get together meeting but it is being advertised as “ex-mormon get together”. I don’t consider myself an anti-mormon so that just didn’t seem the place for me. The church does many good things and has some great people.
My wife is very supportive and that is huge. I’ve discussed the many doubts I have with the church with her but she seems to be able to deal with them so much better than I do. Leaving the church altogether crosses my mind often but it would emotionally hurt my children and all our other relatives so for now I just stay away. To be totally truthful, I don’t feel guilty about not attending church or having a calling. I am kind of in a spiritual limbo land. I honestly do not know where to go at this point with my LDS faith.
Sorry for the long post and hope I can add some value to the forum! Thanks to all of you and the support you provide. I’ve got a busy schedule so if I don’t post too often it doesn’t mean I’m not here.
Welcome, too. New friends even those who post sporadically are a joy. Thanks for sharing your story. I love that you and your wife are still a team. That is a fortunate gift. Welcome. Yes, it is good to have a supportive spouse. I look forward to getting to know you better. Welcome. I know this isn’t about me, but it’s so validating to read about your thoughts, and those of others here. Maybe I’m really not so different than ‘everyone else’ after all. I hope you get some of that from being here. For me, it’s a very positive thing. How many are there in the woodwork that have similar honest concerns, but who choose not to be overtly negative? I, too, look forward to getting to know you better. I hope you will find some things here to stimulate thoughts and feelings that will help you figure out how to make it all work for you and your family.
Again, I am amazed at how close some of your thoughts expressed seem to be to things that come out of my mouth sometimes. Regarding doubting foundational beliefs that you’ve had for some time, I’m going through that as well. This process is referred to sometimes as a deconstruction, which makes a lot of sense to me. My belief world was made up of all kinds of things that I had little part in validating, and about which I never thought critically. This is probably someone else’s analogy (in fact, I probably got it off of this site somewhere … John Dehlin, maybe), but to me it’s like discovering that your house is falling down. Rather than replace a few shingles and some siding and calling it good, sometimes it’s better to burn the whole thing down and start from scratch. Not always, but sometimes. Maybe you’ll end up with something similar to what you started out with, and maybe not.
Welcome to the community. It is always interesting to hear other people’s stories and experiences. When you mention in your post, “maybe I’m really not so different than ‘everyone else’ after all”, you are very right. Before I came upon the Internet community of members that feel this way it seemed like the only approach was either accept it all, hit the road or just stay silent. When I read John Dehlin’s crisis of faith and listened to the podcast it was extremely helpful to know that others that are still LDS can find a path that can work. I’m holding out hope/faith that there is something out there for me.
Some things however, I just can’t take anymore. Just to list one…I no longer attend F/T meetings. I would joke with my wife that it is the modern version of the BOM Rameumptom – … “every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers. Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand. Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer…
We taught our kids growing up to talk about how the gospel has influenced their lives and if they wanted to bear a testimony to think about what they wanted to say and not just repeat what they hear. We were never going to go up with them, it was their choice.
Once my teenage son just before going on his mission got up and said he knew God lived and answered prayer and he “believed” that BOM was the word of God and he “believed” that JS had seen a vision but he was still searching for more knowledge. After the meeting a member politely scolded him and said “it is ok to say “I know”, you need to say I know”. I told this member “no, it is ok to say I believe”. You could almost see the look in her face of what an awful parent I was for not teaching my kids how to bear testimony properly.
I remember when I was the ward mission leader and the missionaries brought an investigator to F/T meeting. The lady walked out of the middle of the meeting and after we met with her she said it sounded like all of you are just trying to re-assure yourselves over and over again. Everyone is saying the same thing.
Anyway, I seem to recall the analogy you mentioned about tearing down the whole house and starting from scratch. It is an interesting concept. I would be interested in others that have done that and would be willing to share how they approached it? What they went through? I consider myself to be at the beginning of this whole thing and I can see that there are many others that are further down this road.
ElCid: My non-member parents said the same thing about fast and testimony meeting — actually, a testimony meeting after a baptism. They felt it was just a bunch of people trying to convince themselves and others that the whole thing is true.
One thing, though, it sounds like you have gone to the very roots of religion in your questioning — even questioning the existence of God. Personally, I would consider starting with that question — on your own — using whatever resources and tools available to settle that question. It is SO foundational, and you need not rely only on LDS sources. Also, focus on whether the HG is real or imagined…. I believe it’s real given the many times I’ve felt it turn the same way a light turns on when you flick a switch — whether in or out of the Church (I’m a convert).
For me, when I was 15 I went through a bout of depression (in retrospect) and I turned to a Protestant minister for help. He taught me to pray, and told me to pray every day. I did so and had some very powerful spiritual experiences as I prayed alone that convinced me there is a God. I don’t question that fact at all, and it is a foundation in my life. I never really did come to terms with whether Christ existed — however, I heard the law of Justice and Mercy from the missionaries and then it simply made sense, and so, I lean on it. To me, it is a wonderful solution to the problem of man’s imperfection that satisfies the need for a just world with the need to be merciful to others. I accept that on faith…..the rest of the Mormon stuff…well, I wouldn’t let that get in the way of basic spirituality now that it no longer seems palatable to you — focus on developing a relationship with God and that will lead you to other paths of truth…or to a sense that you know nothing about the truth anymore, but have deeply held personal “theories” and values that you live by. That is where I’m at right now, and I try not to let the Church interfere with it.
That’s my advice, and it’s worth every penny you paid for it….
ElCid wrote:Once my teenage son just before going on his mission got up and said he knew God lived and answered prayer and he “believed” that BOM was the word of God and he “believed” that JS had seen a vision but he was still searching for more knowledge. After the meeting a member politely scolded him and said “it is ok to say “I know”, you need to say I know”. I told this member “no, it is ok to say I believe”. You could almost see the look in her face of what an awful parent I was for not teaching my kids how to bear testimony properly.
I can so totally relate to this type of experience. I was like this (the general style) for my entire Church life, both as a youth and now as an adult. I think way too much about things
ElCid wrote:Anyway, I seem to recall the analogy you mentioned about tearing down the whole house and starting from scratch. It is an interesting concept. I would be interested in others that have done that and would be willing to share how they approached it? What they went through? I consider myself to be at the beginning of this whole thing and I can see that there are many others that are further down this road.
How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
😈 There isn’t a single best answer. In all seriousness, it seems that people drift along the path to the level and at the speed they need to go. Figure out what interests you, and the types of topics that you are drawn to, and you will find the right places to explore. The cool thing now is you are free to go where the “Spirit” guides you, anywhere … not just in the safe confines of a small box. How far down do you have to strip your assumptions and expectations? Nobody can tell you that but you (and perhaps God). Here are some common stopping points I observe (starting from the Church is literally and fundamentally true and has never changed):
1. The Church has changed, but that’s OK.
2. The Church isn’t what you thought it was.
3. Christianity isn’t what you thought it was.
4. Doubting the historical Jesus and the atonement.
5. Religion in general isn’t what you thought it was.
6. There is no God as you thought of Him.
7. There is no higher power or anything beyond the material world we experience with our senses.
8. Nothing matters. There is no purpose to anything (pure Nihilism).
Those are some very broad levels of demolishing your assumptions and expectations, stripping down to the bedrock to work your way to a new equilibrium for building.
To be very brief, I find myself at the point where I no longer feel the need to find the “real” story. I am not really convinced there’s a single explanation for all the unexplained, or perhaps it’s that we can’t put it into human language. I have had spiritual experiences that are very profound, and continue to have them. I believe there is a transcendent, all-encompassing “truth” or connection/oneness that can be experienced, but only directly. I find religion useful. I find Mormonism very inspiring and effective. I want to be a part of it. I feel connected to the Church but no longer attached to it. I attend regularly and participate. I also explore anything and everything else that sings to my soul. FWIW, I think that approach fits perfectly into the “Pure Mormonism” the Prophet Joseph Smith preached about in his latter years in Nauvoo. I love themes like that, and many others, in Mormonism.
ElCid wrote:Anyway, I seem to recall the analogy you mentioned about tearing down the whole house and starting from scratch. It is an interesting concept. I would be interested in others that have done that and would be willing to share how they approached it? What they went through? I consider myself to be at the beginning of this whole thing and I can see that there are many others that are further down this road.
I agree with what Brian said — the level of tearing down is different for different people.
How have I done it? For me, I didn’t have to deconstruct my belief in God or Jesus Christ — I don’t seem to question those ideals — although I’m sure I could if I let myself (like Brian, I think a lot, and also tend to ask the questions aren’t supposed to be asked). Nor did I have to deconstruct my belief in the Book of Mormon as something that helps me get closer to God. I still find it an inspiring Book of scripture that brings me spirituality when I reflect on its pages. It also cautions me a bit, and I accept the caution.
On the other hand, my own trials of commitment DID cause me to deconstruct my belief that all leaders are inspired all the time, that certain commandments were to be obeyed as currently interpreted or else I will burn in hell, and that the Church is truly benevolent to its members and a divinely commissioned, guiding force. I also came to grips with tithing recently and have my own philosophy about that subject.
I also had to deconstrcut my long-held beliefs about what constitutes being “a good priesthood holder”. And, I had to reframe certain beliefs. For me, that means still believing certain things or doing certain commandments, but for different reasons in the past. For example, I give blessings because they are a way of comforting people, not because I necessarily believe I have some divine power to make things come to pass that otherwise wouldn’t come to pass, but because they genuinely comfort people — and its an additional avenue of teaching and training for my kids.
I go to Church because it’s good for my children and my marriage, not because I feel I must do it for salvation. I do hometeaching because I need to get out of my ego-centric world and serve people since I’ve lost my mojo for service, unfortunately. I used to do it because it was part of being a good priesthood holder and because I had to as a priesthood leader. Now I do it to help me build character.
I don’t go to priesthood opening exercises anymore, don’t move others unless I really want to, and don’t clean the chapel. I intentionally plan vacations and weekends away so I don’t have to go to Church. This way I get a break from it without appearing less active to my family and everyone, and setting off alarms. And I will likely NOT do things out of a tired sense of duty anymore.
So, I also put limits on the things that the Church demands of us to reduce the angst, and have cut out many of the experiences that were a pebble in my shoe. And last of all, I’ve decided certain things we believe in the Church are just good to believe, and I don’t care if they are true or not. The BoM is one such example. I love reading that book, for some reason, even though it can be repetitive and somethings full of chaff like “Behold” , “year” and repetition etc. Word of Wisdom is another (sorry Cwald, if you’re reading this). I think living the WoW is good, just as being a vegetarian is good (although I’m a non-practicing vegetarian right now), and so is living the law of Chastity.
At the same time, I have divergent thoughts I believe for the time being, although I leave myself open to change. One is that everyone is in the fog. Even people who claim they KNOW it’s true. I know nothing about truth really, but I have perceptions and deeply held values that if I violate them, my conscience gets bothered. I don’t believe the Church is necessarily there to help the members; it’s own interests often come ahead of the needs of individuals, and I don’t agree with that. I don’t beleive the policies and cultural norms that percolate through our daily interactions at Church HAVE to be that way — they are just an extension of the current thinking of the leaders at the top…etcetera. All divergent kinds of thoughts, and I’m comfortable with them.
However, you have to keep your mouth shut about such things, even to your spouse (at least, that’s best in my case).
And so ends mine epistle of deconstruction and reconstruction. In short, I think it’s a matter of identifying those things that are MOST cumbersome to you, and searching for alternate reasons that can comfortably co-exist with not believing those things for the tired old reasons we hear at Church. It can mean putting limits on what you will let the Church extract from you. And it may mean coming to your own personal, quiet interpretation of the meaning, reason and format in which you accept certain commandments. Bottom line, you have to feel at peace with those realignments or this staying thing can be hard to sustain.
ElCid wrote:Some things however, I just can’t take anymore. Just to list one…I no longer attend F/T meetings.
I joined the church in spite of my first exposure being a F/T meeting. Never liked them and still don’t.Quote:Once my teenage son just before going on his mission got up and said he knew God lived and answered prayer and he “believed” that BOM was the word of God and he “believed” that JS had seen a vision but he was still searching for more knowledge. After the meeting a member politely scolded him and said “it is ok to say “I know”, you need to say I know”. I told this member “no, it is ok to say I believe”. You could almost see the look in her face of what an awful parent I was for not teaching my kids how to bear testimony properly.
I stopped participating actively after a similar experience.Quote:Anyway, I seem to recall the analogy you mentioned about tearing down the whole house and starting from scratch. It is an interesting concept. I would be interested in others that have done that and would be willing to share how they approached it? What they went through? I consider myself to be at the beginning of this whole thing and I can see that there are many others that are further down this road.
A few months ago I put together my own articles of faith. After letting them sit for a while, I still think they fairly accurately describe not only where I am heading, but where I want to be.- ‘Truth’, while a valuable concept, is completely subjective. Having said that, ‘knowing’ what our own truth is is vital.
- We can only ‘know’ the ‘truth’ that works for us. Each person’s experience is crucial in defining ultimate truth for them.
- Finding and seeing ‘beauty’ in our surroundings is essential.
- I believe in the existence of God. That is a conscious choice. It’s possible that one day I may not believe, but I feel a connection to something greater than myself, and that thing I call God. I briefly examined what it would be like to not believe in God, and though I know it works for some others, I didn’t much like it.
- I must not neglect my responsibility of regularly cultivating a relationship with God.
- I believe that the ideas of the great commandments, loving God and loving my fellow man, are central to living a happy and productive life. We need to be kind.
- I believe that there is great value in the notion of Jesus Christ as saviour, but that it is in the myth that we find that value.
- I should not be dismissive of or mock other’s convictions. I should not become irreverent.
- I do not believe in a literal satan. What evil exists is within us.
- I do not believe in the historicity of the book of mormon, or in fact, of most scripture, though I do believe many parts of them are, or may be, inspired.
- I believe anything that God reveals to me personally, and I am willing to consider those things that he has revealed to others.
- My relationship with God is completely unrelated to my relationship with any church.
- I do not know anything, and all of my cherished opinions may some day be proven to me to be false (though I doubt it).
I somewhat hesitantly post these thoughts simply as an illustration of where at least one of us has gone after a faith deconstruction. In other words, I don’t advocate that anyone else adopt a similar set of notions, nor would I venture a guess as to where your journey will lead you. Frankly, for me, I don’t see how it could have turned out any other way, but I suppose that’s the nature of these things.
I think these are brilliant Brown…I pasted them into my journal as a reference. I feel the same way about many of them, and your view of the BoM is much like mine, although I reserve judgment that there may be some historical fact in it. However, I dont’ claim there is, either. Thanks all for the helpful words. I know there is no cookie cutter approach to this. I read somewhere that after you go through a crisis of faith you can never look at the church the same was as before. This seems to be a theme throughout the many posts I’ve read. Over the weekend I was talking to a TBM friend. We were talking about tithing and how the church uses the money on different things. I made the comment to her that the church does not publicly disclose its finances. As members we hope/have faith that the monies are used wisely but like any large organizations I was sure that there are individual cases where the funds are not.
She became quite defensive asking me how I could think that way and did I know of examples where the money was not used appropriately. I told her it didn’t matter if I had examples or not. We as a membership take it on faith that the money is used in correct ways. How can you know if there is no public disclosure? The church has a right to keep it finances private but how does an individual member know for sure on things like, how much do GA get paid, what are the expenses of an individual mission, interest on different accounts and so on?
We went round and round for a bit and finally, I just smiled and thought this was me 10 years ago. I would have defended doubting questions with absolute answers. It is so much easier isn’t it? How inconvenient to have a crisis of faith! It is so much easier to just believe and go on with life letting thorny issues roll off like water off a duck. I wish I could do that but unfortunately for me the elephant is in the room.
So, wherever I end up on this journey I know that I will never look at it the same way. Re-thinking my beliefs will probably have to be done slowly and maybe even one at time. As I mentioned before, many of you seem to have nice list already established and checked off.
Wish me luck!
I wish you luck! Hopefully you’ll make part of the journey here at this site so we can learn more about your experiences. I’ve been in your shoes before — almost exactly the same conversation. You have to be careful who you do it with, I’ve learned. I haven’t written an introduction yet, was actually just about to when I got caught up reading the new ones. I know I need to but I just wanted to say I really appreciate the tone and manner in which all of you give your answers, they really resonate with me. For awhile I wasn’t sure if I needed this forum or not. I wasn’t sure where I was heading. I’ve been reconstructing my beliefs for just over a year now, and am starting to settle in finally. I think I’m pretty much in sync with many of the things Brown wrote. I have started to develop the idea that although I’m open to the idea of the historicity of the BOM and visions of JS (etc…) I simply just do not posses the ability to “know”, but more importantly although it makes it easier to press forward with faith if you do have the mindset that those things are 100% accurate and True the real value of it is the myth/symbol/story, and regardless of what people believe or know that is all we truly have. Hi ElCid and welcome, I second the thoughts shared by Brian, Doug, and SD. I have cleared away the rubble until I reached the bedrock of my soul. This allows me to own myself and my spirituality in a way that is much more direct and personal than I believed possible before.
Although I realize the whole F/T meeting is only tangential to your journey, I would like to focus my comments here.
ElCid wrote:Once my teenage son just before going on his mission got up and said he knew God lived and answered prayer and he “believed” that BOM was the word of God and he “believed” that JS had seen a vision but he was still searching for more knowledge. After the meeting a member politely scolded him and said “it is ok to say “I know”, you need to say I know”. I told this member “no, it is ok to say I believe”. You could almost see the look in her face of what an awful parent I was for not teaching my kids how to bear testimony properly.
I remember when I was the ward mission leader and the missionaries brought an investigator to F/T meeting. The lady walked out of the middle of the meeting and after we met with her she said it sounded like all of you are just trying to re-assure yourselves over and over again. Everyone is saying the same thing.
I remember talking with a member of the stake presidency after priesthood one Sunday. He had made the statement that, “The church is perfect but the people aren’t.” I was asking him what he meant by “perfect.” His first definition was that the organization was perfect with all the offices of the priesthood. I asked him how that could be since we no longer have a Presiding Church Patriarch? Was the organization perfect before or after this office in the priesthood was phased out? This went on for a while. At several junctures he asked about my testimony and I reassured him that this conversation was purely academic about the definition of the word “perfect” and not the seed of apostasy. Finally, he suggested that the church is perfect in that it is divine (or originated with God). I personally like that answer. But if “perfect” means “of divine origin” then the people are perfect too! Are we not all children of God? Each one of us a “god in embryo” possessing the divine spark within us? We would then need to change the phrase to “The church is perfect and the people are too!”
Well, I felt that I had made a very compelling argument for why the word “perfect” was completely inappropriate in this context. He just shrugged his shoulders and told me that the way of things were quite clear to his simple mind.
It was then that I had an epiphany. When he said the church was perfect, what he meant was that he really likes the church. He could not be dissuaded from saying the church is perfect because that has been a socially acceptable and appropriate of saying what he feels (i.e. the church is good, the church is of God, the church is meaningful in my life)
I read somewhere that when we ask how someone’s day is going we are not really wanting an explanation, but we are expressing a level of connectedness with that person. Even though our words taken literally are not what is meant, the level of connectedness and fellowship that is solidified in part by asking this question is still worthwhile.
This all goes back to the “I know” statements from F/T meetings. We say “I know” but that is not really what is meant. The testimony bearing is a form of ritual that helps the bearer feel connected to God and to the rest of the congregation. The person gets up, shares some personal experiences, says essentially the church is good, the church is of God, the church is meaningful in my life and I AM ONE OF YOU.
This for me has made it easier for me to tolerate the statements and even use them myself. After all, this is my tribe – what’s the harm of speaking the language?
Some sources that have been helpful to me in considering this can be found in an article I quote from here…
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2441&hilit=perfect&start=20 and a Sunstone article titled “Belief, Metaphor, and Rhetoric : the Mormon Practice of Testimony Bearing” that can be found here…
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/081-20-27.pdf Anyway, all of this would be pretty meaningless if I hadn’t been able to find my center. Before I could learn to live with others, I had to first learn to live with myself.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.