Been asked to speak at Gay Affirming Church About Mormonism

Sounds wonderful Bridget!! You definitely must be excited to share something you feel passionate about. I wish I could attend to hear it. I like the fact this organization is getting it “from the horse’s mouth” since so many are content to rely on hearsay.

Thanks Ray and SD for your support. It will be interesting. Sorry, Ray about my book link and sales. I forgot about your rule here on that and apologize.

Isn’t there a splinter gay LDS church?

It would be strange to say…

Heteroosexual Affirming Church…

or NRA Affirming Church.

Sounds like a great experience Bridget! I’m glad it worked well and that you came through the sickness to present with clarity. I would love to see that article Tom unearthed about organizational effectiveness — I do stuff like that for a living, so I’d be fascinated to read about it!

Ok, I put together a full report this morning of my presentation with questions included.

Report of Bridget Night’s Presentation On Mormonism and her Book to a Gay Affirming Church

In Daytona Beach, Florida, September 20, 2011

(Also a Transcript of her presentation)

Presentation at New Church Family God Gab

September 20, 2011

Introduction:

a. Appreciation:

First I would like to thank Tom Brown for asking me to facilitate this presentation today. I think it is wonderful that the “New Church Family” has these God Gabs about other religions. The more we get to know about other faiths, the more we can learn what we have in common.

b. Assess Audience:

By a raise of hands, how many of you know anything about Mormonism or Mormons? How many of you have ever known or worked with any Mormons? Do you know any famous Mormons? Ok, good. (Most people at the presentation knew little about Mormonism but most had known or worked with Mormons).

There is a good book out (show book) by George E. Vandeman of the 7th day Advent church called “What I like About” the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Charismatics, Catholics, Jews, etc.” Too many times religions focus on their differences and become antagonist towards each other trying to prove whose right and whose wrong. I think this happens in all areas of life such as race, politics, and sexual orientation. Another thing that happens is that people often get incorrect information about other religions. They do not go to the horses mouth for the facts, but get information from someone who is disgruntled or has mis-information.

Let me share with you an example of that: In 1987 I worked as a hairdresser in Tampa, Florida. I was still an active Mormon at that time. One of my customers whom I had as a client for many years came in my salon for her usual frosting of her hair. I pulled thick strands of her short hair through a highlighting cap and as I was doing that, she made this comment: “OOOH, I look like a Mormon! At first I thought she said she looked like a Moron, but then she said it again. I do not normally tell people my religion in the work place, but I asked her why she said that. She said, “Well, everyone knows Mormons have horns (like my hair is now) and are a devils cult.” I was shocked and simply said, “Wow, I’ve been a Mormon all my life and never knew that?” She was embarrassed and apologized but I asked her where she heard that. She said, “Oh, from my pastor at church.” I said, “Well, if you wanted to learn about Lutherans, would you go to a Catholic Priest or a Lutheran Priest? I simply explained it was best to go to the horses mouth to learn about someone’s faith.

Handouts:

Before we get to the ‘ Question and Answer’ panel type discussion of this evening, I want to make sure you all have copies of the handouts on Mormonism that are on the tables. They should include the notebooks I made for each of you with a copy of the basic beliefs on Mormonism, a sheet on the latest updates on homosexuality in the lds church, and a survey sheet. Does everyone have that? Ok, good.

My background and brief overview of the lds church:

First, I want to give you a brief background of my history in the lds church and then some basic information about the Mormon church.

I was raised in the Mormon church by convert parents (who were raised Lutheran) but joined the lds church in their late 20’s in Berlin Germany. We immigrated to Salt Lake City, Utah when I was 5 years old and my family was very active in the Mormon faith. The lds church had kept my family from starving to death during WWII and helped us get going in America. My dad was very big into genealogy which is a big part of the Mormon faith. I was baptized into the Mormon church on my 8th birthday in the Salt Lake Mormon Tabernacle by my dad. I grew up hearing the stories of Jesus and fell madly in love with my Savior. When I was 21 I had a strong desire to be a missionary and share the gospel of Jesus Christ. I had prayed about it and believed the Lord wanted me to do this. I was called to serve a two year mission in Austria. It was a very difficult mission going door to door where it was 89% Catholic and most people had lost their faith in God after WWII.

This was the first time I really began questioning my religion. I realized I did not want to be out here proselyting for two years of my life if I wasn’t really sure this was from God. The lds faith had a lot of answers to life questions and gave meaning and purpose to this life which I very much liked and believed. Because of my upbringing in the lds faith I did not smoke or drink, I stayed morally clean, got many opportunities to serve and develop my talents. There are a lot of intelligent, loving people in the lds church who care deeply about Christ. You may be aware that two of our presidential candidates, Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormon as well as democratic majority leader, Harry Reid. There are many good reasons people become converted to the lds faith. Nevertheless, some things began bothering me over the years. I got into reading my own church history and studying the life of Joseph Smith, the founder of the lds church. I was very disturbed about the polygamy issue that was once practiced and some of the things Joseph Smith and other leaders had done. I was troubled by the Book of Mormon, as was my husband, and I never got answers to our prayers that this book was from God. The Mormon church was becoming more and more like a corporation rather than a place of spiritual growth for us.

About two years ago we made a decision to leave the lds church and God led us to become a part of the Nazerene church here in Port Orange. We love our church family there and believe this is where God wants us right now.

Basic background of LDS CHURCH

1. The Actual name of the Mormon church is the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Mormon is just a nick-name given to the church because of a book of scripture they believe in called “The Book of Mormon.” The word, ‘ Latter-day’ is as opposed to ‘former days of Christ’. Meaning we are living in the last days before second coming of Christ. And the members in Jesus’s early church were called ‘saints’, therefore is the reason why LDS members call themselves ‘saints’.

2. In the year 1820, a young boy (about 14 yrs. old, named Joseph Smith lived in the area of Palmyra, New York. He was very spiritually minded and studied the Bible daily with his family. There were many Christian churches in his area and he was trying to decide which one he should join. His mother and siblings had already joined various denominations. He was visiting the different congregations but found they all taught differently about things in the Bible. He didn’t think that all the contradictory interpretations could be correct so, he decided to follow the admonition in the book of James that said, “If any of you lack wisdom, let Him, ask of God.” So, one morning he went into the woods near his house and knelt down and prayed. He had no idea what to expect, but he said that during this prayer a vision opened up to Him and that God, the Father, and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him. When he asked his question about what Church to join, Christ told him to join none of them as His original church when He was on earth had become corrupted and was lost. He was told that he would be called as a prophet to restore the church of Jesus Christ as it was when Jesus established it.

3. That restoration of Christ’s originally established church included the “Priesthood” or authority to act in Gods name. Just as Jesus had given his apostles authority to baptize, heal the sick, and run the church, Joseph Smith and the early church leaders were restored that same priesthood. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints was officially established in April 6, 1830 with 6 members and under Joseph Smith leadership, it grew to 26,000 while he lived. It has now grown to 14 million on 6 different continents. It was eventually set up with Joseph Smith as the President/prophet, of the church with 12 apostles, seventies. high priests, elders, deacons, teachers etc. Just as in the church organization as Jesus established.

4. Part of this restoration also included further revelation. Unlike the Catholics who believe they have their authority through Peter, the Mormons interpret the scripture “upon this rock I will build my house as meaning the “rock of ‘Revelation,” (not Peter a man). Because when Jesus asked Peter whom do you say I am, Peter boldly shot forth with, “You are the Christ, son of the living God.” Jesus then said that flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but the Holy Spirit. So, the lds church claims its authority through revelation and that God still calls prophets today who receive further scriptures pertinent to the latter days as they have in the lds church.

5. The Mormon church has 4 standard works they consider scripture. 1) The Bible as far as it is translated correctly (Joseph Smith said there were errors in the Bible and through revelation claimed to have cleared up some of these errors. 2. The Book of Mormon, which JS claims is the history of the American Indian on this American Continents from the years 400BC to 600 AD of a 1000 years. He said that an angel, named Moroni (an ancient American Indian prophet) appeared to him and showed him some buried gold plates and that he translated them in to what today is known as the book of Mormon (Mormon being one of the Indian prophets in the book of Mormon). 3. The Doctrine and Covenants which is revelations Joseph Smith received from God concerning doctrine and teachings of the church for these latter days. 4. Lastly, the Pearl of Great Price which are from papyrus JS translated that claim to be of the writings of Moses, and Abraham about Gods potential for man.

One of the best informational books on the Mormon church is this book called “Mormonism for Dummies” that I believe is very accurate. Here is the list of the lds beliefs handout we went over in the meeting and then the questions that were asked:

Beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Supported by scriptures from the King James Version of the Bible

(Beliefs critics of the church disagree with us on)

1. The Holy Trinity-Three Separate Beings

a. Matthew 26:39 AO my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me_ Nevertheless, Not as I will, but as thou wilt.@ (Here we see Christ in not praying to himself but to his Father and that there are two separate wills).

b. John 17:23 AI in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.@ (Here you see that Christ meant one in purpose, not one and the same being.)

c. John 20:17 ATouch me not for I have not yet ascended unto my Father…@ (A son often looks like his father and acts like his Father but they are not one and the same being.)

d. John 17:21 AThat they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…(Jesus told his disciples that he would that they would be one even as the Father and I are one. Does that mean the disciples should all jump in Jesus=s body or be one in purpose.)

There are many other scriptures but I will only give you a few for each question. The point is that each religion can interpret scripture in various ways. That=s why there are so many denominations. That was the problem Joseph Smith had when he was looking for a church and why he prayed. The reason God puts prophets on the earth is avoid such confusion. God=s prophet can say, AThus saith the Lord.@ Of course one must determine whether a person is a true prophet or not. Most mainstream Christian religions today say that there are no prophets on the earth today by quoting the New Testament scripture which says, A…there will be false prophets in the last days.@ But, that denotes there will also be true prophets, otherwise Jesus would have said, there will be NO prophets in the last days.

Before the days of Constantine, Jesus=s church taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were three separate bings. Because Constantine in 365 A.D. wanted to unite the kingdoms, he had an ecumenical counsel and they voted on many religious beliefs. They decided to accept the Nicene creed (a pagan belief) of the three in one theory.

2. Eternal Marriage

a. Mark 12:25 AFor when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage: but are as the angels which are in Heaven.@ (Most mainstream Christian Faiths use this scripture to say there is no marriage in Heaven, therefore when they wed, ministers say, AUntil death do you part.@ In this scripture the Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus by telling of a woman whose husband had died and she married her husbands brother. That was a custom in those days. The brother died too, and she went on to have 7 other husbands. So, the Sadducees asked, AWhose wife she will be in the resurrection.@ That=s when Jesus gave that scripture. It is important not to take a scripture out of context but to read the whole text and all the cross references. Otherwise you may not get the full meaning of a scripture.

b. Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.@ (Jesus gave his disciples the authority to seal marriages and relationships for eternity. The woman in the above story was not sealed to any of the men she married and that is why Jesus said, she would not be married in heaven. Think about it for a minute. If God ordained marriage , families, sex, etc. on earth because they would bring us so much joy, why would he take it away in the eternal perspective. For those who do not want marriage or families, they can choose to become ministering angels in the next life. Temple sealings are for binding marriages in heaven (eternity) as well as on earth.

c. 1 Corinthians 11: 11-12 Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

3. The Degrees of Glory in Heaven

a. John 14:2 AIn my Fathers house are many mansions.@

b. 1 Corinthians 15: 4-42 AThere is a glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars…@

c. 2 Corinthians 12: 2-5 AI knew a man in Christ about fourteen years ago….such a one caught up to the third heaven.@

d. Revelations 20:12-15 ATelestial is by those who suffer hell in their spirit state…@

(To say that there is only a heaven or hell is like a Principal of a school who says there are only AA@ or an AF@ grades. Most students fall into the AC@ grade. Therefore, the scriptures talk about the glory of the sun or the Afew therebe that make it@ into the celestial glory. Those who want to become like the Savior and pursue excellence (Matt. 5:48 ABe ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect,@ go to that degree of glory. In the glory of the Moon, or terrestial glory, are average good people, but not valiant in their faith in Christ. The glory of the stars, or telestial kingdom, is where those who loved evil and doing wickedly will go. God is a reasonable and just God.

4. Gospel preached to the Dead and Proxy Baptism for the Dead

a. 1 Peter 3:18-20 A…by which he (Jesus during the 3 days before his resurrection) went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometimes were disobedient..in the days of Noah.@

b. 1 Peter 4:6 AFor this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh…@

c. 1 Corinthians 15:29 AElse what shall they do that are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead.@ (In these scriptures the members of the church had already lost their faith in the resurrection, and Paul asks them then, why they are baptizing by proxy for the dead if the dead do not rise at all.)

(When Jesus told the thief on the cross, AToday you will be with me in paradise,@ mainstream Christians interpret that to mean that the thief went straight to heaven that day. This is where some religions came up with the idea of Adeathbed@ repentance. After the three days that Jesus=s body lay in the tomb, Christ appeared to Mary Magdalene and said, AI have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven. So, he did preach to the spirits in paradise (the spirit world and spirit prison) but that is not heaven. People will be assigned to heaven or the 3 degrees of glory after judgment day.

5. Man, a god in embryo

a. Psalms 82:6 AYe are gods, and all of you are children of the most high.@

b. 1 Corinthians 8: 5-6 AAs there be gods many and lords many.@

(We are told in the scriptures that we are Ajoint heirs with Christ and as God is our father and creator of our spirits we have the potential to become little Agods.@ Similarly, as children grow up to be like their parents and inherit all they have.

6. Plural marriage

a. Genesis 16:3-4 AAnd Sarai, Abrahams wife gave Hagar to her husband…@

b. Genesis 29: 23-25 AJacob marries Leah and Rachel.@

c. 2 Samuel 12 (9-12) ABut because of David=s sin, the Lord took away his wives and gave them to a neighbor.

(The Mormon church believes that Only when God commands man to live polygamy is it allowed at certain times in history.@ Only 3% of the Mormon men were even allowed to have other wives because you had to be very righteous and be able to support more wives and children. It is a well known fact that women only produce so many eggs by a certain age and can no longer bear children. Men, on the other hand have sperm well into their later years and can impregnant many other women who want children. When polygamy became against the law of the land, God told the prophet that it should no longer be practiced. Those who practice it after that law were excommunicated from the church. When it was practiced, the first wife had to agree to other wives or it was not allowed. Only one wife is necessary to live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of Heaven.

7. Add to or Take From@ scripture.

a. Revelations 22:18-19 AIf any man shall add to or take away from these words..@

(Deut. 4:2 and Matt.5: 19 says the exact same thing. Revelations was not the last book written just placed last in the Bible. These scriptures simply mean not to Aadd to or take from@ those particular words or books, otherwise there should be nothing after the book of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament. The Pharisees were always telling Jesus he was adding to the Old Testament and that it was blasphemes.

b. 2 Peter 1:20-21 says that scripture is not of private interpretation but only by holy men chosen of God. (Again we see the need for living prophets today.)

8. The Book of Mormon

a. Ezekiel 37:15-28 AA stick of Joseph (a stick was a written scroll in the Old Testament) and a stick of Judah will come together as one stick..@ (The Bible is the history of the Jews and their descendants. The Book of Mormon is the history of the descendant of Joseph through the lineage of Manassah. Both are witnesses that Jesus is the Christ.

b. 1 Timothy 5:19 says that Aout of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall everything stand. In a court of law, the more eyewitnesses the better.

c. John 10:16 AOther sheep I have who are not of this fold. Them too I must visit.@ ( The Indians of South America and Mexico have in their history recorded about the great white God who came to visit them after His resurrection. These Indians knew about baptism by immersion, and many other Christian practices which surprised the Catholic settlers who came to Christianize these heathens. The reason the Mormon church is growing so fast in South America is because they recognize their own history in the Book of Mormon. Archeologists have found places by using the Book of Mormon. Old Rivers in Mexico and South America are named Mormon and Lehi.

9. Pre-existence

a. Jeremiah 1:4-6 AThe Lord knew Jeremiah, and he was sanctified and ordained to be a prophet before he was born.

b. John 3:13 AAnd no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.@

c. Job 1:6 ANow, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.@

10. Priesthood

a. Amos 3:7 ASurely, the Lord God will do nothing except he revealth it first to his servants the prophets.

b. Ephraim 4: 11-14 and 1 Corinthians 12: 28-31 AAnd he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.@ (Jesus church should be the same today as then and have the same authority.)

c. Malachi 4:5-6 ABehold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the Prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.@

d. Matt. 17:10-13 AElias shall truly come and restore all things.@ (Including the lost priesthood)

11. Temples

a. Revelations 7:15 ATherefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.@

b. Revelations 1: 6 AAnd hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; ….@ Rev. 3:12 AHim that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God… and I will write upon him my new name.@ (Throughout the book of revelations it talks about the temple ceremonies, white garments worn and receiving a new name.)

According to the ancient Christian martyr Origen, a true Saint had to have and wear special garments in order to properly offer sacrifices in the temple. According to other ancient Christain scholars who were taught by John the Revelator and ancient research done by Dr. Mosheim, many temples were destroyed or defiled because of anti-Christian persecution. AThis long and cruel persectuon commenced in the month of February or April, A.D. 303…and it was introduced by the destrucion of the spacious Christian temple at Nicomedia, and the burning of the books found in it.@

Another ancient Christian writer of that time, Hippolytus, wrote AWe have delivered to you briefly these things concerning baptism and the oblation because you have already been instructed concerning the resurrection of the flesh and the rest according to the Scriptures. But if there is any other matter which ought to be told, let the bishop impart it secretly to those who are communicated. He shall not tell this to any but the faithful and only after they have first been communicated. This is the white stone of which John said there is a new name written upon it which no man knows except him who receives.@

Now we can either open up the group for questions on Mormonism or go over the beliefs of Mormons list I put together in your notebook or both?

Lots of good discussion and questions followed then. Here are some of the questions people asked and my answer to them?

1. Are all young men (and women) required to go on missions for the church? Or is there a lot of pressure in the Mormon church to go? I told them that the youth are prepared early on to want to go on missions for the lds church but they do not have to go. Young men are usually called at 19 years old to go on missions but can go at a later age as well. Females cannot go on missions until they are 21 as they are more encouraged for marriage and having children, but if they do not happen to be married by then, they are welcomed to go on missions. But, yes there is somewhat of a status and pressure to fulfill a mission in the lds church.

2. Who calls you on this mission and who decides where you go on a mission? How are these missions payed for? What if you can’t afford to go on a mission but want to? When a young man or woman is ready to serve a mission, they fill out forms and paperwork that the pastor/minister of their congregation (who is called a bishop) sends into church headquarters in Salt Lake City. These bishops also hold a worthiness interview with the young man or woman determining their testimony of the church and moral cleanliness. The leaders at church headquarters pray about where the person should be sent. When I served my mission in 1969-71 I received a special letter from the then prophet/president of the church whose name was David O McKay to serve in Austria. On the forms I filled out I was given 3 choices of places I would like to serve. I believe they look at where your ancestors are from and often pick places determined by that. In the lds church there is not a paid ministry and so missionaries pay their own way. The parents or young people themselves usually have saved money in a mission fund to go. Having to pay your own helps determine that your motives for going on not based on money but because you want to serve is more likely. If a person, such as myself, at the time cannot afford to go, then our congregation helps. I was thrown a big party with a money tree for my mission. About 6 months into my mission my father was so blest financially that the congregation no longer needed to help. In fact, my dad used to write me not to come home off my mission as he was being so financially blest. I believe that God blesses any person in any church that wants to serve him.

3. If marriage in the Mormon church is for eternity, do they ever allow divorce? Let’s say you get married to a person you think is great in the beginning and then they change and become abusive, or criminals, are you stuck with them forever? Even though the lds church and Jesus in His day do not want or like divorce, they both recognized that marriages and people can have serious difficulties, so that the answer is, “Yes, under certain circumstances, couples can get a Temple divorce”. It happens more than the church would like.

4. I hear that the lds church takes care of its own and helps the widows and poor; that they have well organized welfare farms and help for members out of work, etc. Is that true? Do they have to pay back money for this? It is true that the lds church is well organized as in the article that Tom put in your packet:

http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-21/b … seph-smith Part of this order of things in the lds church is that families are told to go to their immediate family or distant relatives for help first, and then come to the church for help last. Going to the government for help should be a last resort. There were several times when my husband was in school and I had been in a serious car accident that the church paid our rent and brought us food. No you do not have to pay money back for this, but paying church tithing is expected.

5. What does ‘Tithing’ mean in the lds church? Mormons believe that tithing is 10 percent of your income. They often quote from Malaci to bring your tithes and offerings into the storehouse and the windows of heaven will be opened up to you. Mormons also believe in offerings for building funds, missionary funds, and one of the interesting things they do is hold a Fast and Testimony Meeting once a month at church where members share their personal spiritual experiences and they fast for 2 meals. The money they save from those 2 meals pay for the needy in their congregation.

6. How does the lds church treat those who leave the Mormon church or show any disloyalty or interest in a different church? What is excommunication and do you have to write a letter to leave the church? My husband and I left the Mormon church once about 15 years ago to investigate the 7th Day Adventist church. We were gone about two years before we came back to the lds faith. During that time we still had visits from the lds church members and they were nothing but kind and polite to us. Very welcoming when we returned. They respected that we had doubts and had to do our own searching. Two years ago when we moved from Iowa to Florida we decided not to go back to the lds church. We did have the lds bishop visit us at our home here last year to see where we stood on the church. We explained to him that we did not have a faith in certain teachings of the lds church and would no longer be active. He asked us if we knew 100 % that the church was false and we said no. We told him that unless God told us directly to go back to the lds church we would not be back. We did tell him that we were investigating and attending the Nazerene church right now. He said that was fine and he would welcome us back into the church anytime we wanted to come back. He did say if we got baptized and become members of the Nazerene church that our names would be taken off the church records. They have totally left us alone since then and we have no desire to join any church right now.

So much depends on the bishop of the congregation you are in I have found. Generally we have had really good caring men as bishops. I know some people have had very bad experiences with church leaders, especially on the issue of homosexuality, but fortunately we didn’t.

The only reasons you can be excommunicated from the Mormon church is for serious sins like adultery, immorality, abuse, murder, serious criminal behavior, or if you join with churches or groups that are antagonistic against the church. If you want your name of the records of the church or are joining another church you do have to write a letter of resignation.

7. You mentioned your standard works; where are these papyrus you talked about that claim to have the writings of Moses and Abraham in this book called “the Pearl of Great Price” And, what language was these papyrus in?. It is my understanding that fragments of these papyrus are in the New York Metropolitan Museum and lds church archives. There has been controversy over whether Joseph Smith translated these papyrus correctly and they were supposed to be in reformed Egyptian I think. The main things I gleamed from this book is the great potential of man and purpose of God which makes them worth reading.

2nd part of Presentation

Background on my book and our gay son:

When our youngest child, Johnathan, was around 16 years old he suddenly took a dramatic turn that was very disturbing to my husband and I. Jonathan was a very kind and loving child growing up. He was always well behaved, cheerful, and optimistic (show photos of him here). He was a very spiritual young man who loved the Lord. He never swore and he always got on his friends case when they were swearing. He wanted to be a missionary when he turned 19. . All of a sudden, he became angry all the time. He started swearing, and no longer wanted to go to church. He began saying that he no longer believed in God and started losing a lot of weight. He also became very depressed. It really scared me and I begged him to tell me what was going on. One Sunday, unbeknownst to me, our son had been in a Sunday School class, where this college student substituted. He had taught a class on morality to the 16-17 year olds. This teacher mentioned that homosexuality was an abomination in Gods eyes and that all gays were going to hell. Then he laughed and added that ‘of course, in this church no one has that kind of problem.” Well, you can imagine how my son felt as he was already beating himself up for having a same sex attraction. He was privately praying that he would not be a fag, and that God would take this away from him.

So, as we were driving home from church that Sunday, I again begged Johnathan to tell me what was going on with him. He said, “I can’t tell you mom, accept for I know I am going to hell.” I was totally shocked and said, “What did you do, kill someone?” He laughed and so no, but it was really bad. My husband and I were really worried about him and told him that if he could not talk to us, we would pay for him to have counseling because we felt he needed to talk to someone. So, we got him a counselor that he liked, but still would not tell us what was going on.

So, one night, soon after that, I went to bed with this horrible headache. I had been praying so hard to be able to know what was wrong with Johnathan. I woke up at 1:48 am as I had looked at the clock to see what time it was. Suddenly, I noticed my headache was completely gone and I felt wonderful. It felt like warm water was flowing all over my head and body. Then, I heard a voice in my mind say, “I will tell you the truth about Johnathan.” I thought ‘Wow” this is the Holy Spirit” I was then told to wake up my husband and go in the computer room to check the computer. My husband wasn’t too thrilled about being woke up but he came with me. There we found on the computer screen, an email my son had sent a 20 year old gay Danish youth, he had met in a chat room. In the email, my son was telling his Danish friend how he was planning on ‘outing’ himself as gay to a guy he had fallen madly in love with at his high school.

Well , we were shocked at the least, but now we knew what was going on and why he had been acting so strange. It was a relief on one hand, but so upsetting on the other. We hardly slept that night and I was a nervous wreck. I just couldn’t believe it, as I thought Johnathan had liked girls. I also wondered how we were going to approach Johnathan with this information we had just learned. My husband and I decided it would be best for me to do it, as Johnathan and I had always been very close. So, the next day when Johnathan came home from school I asked if we could talk a minute. He said ‘sure mom’ as he threw himself on his bed.” I said, “Johnathan, would you ever dump your good friend Joe, just because he is real fat? He said, “Of course, not mom, why do you ask?” I then told him that we had discovered a problem he was having but we would never stop loving him because of this. Suddenly, he got really nervous and sat up straight. I pulled out this church magazine and showed him the article that just come out on same-sex attraction. I said, “I think you have this problem. Well, then he got real nervous and denied everything. He was very upset and ran into the bathroom and locked the door. I continued talking to him through the door and told him we knew about ‘David.”. He said, “How do you know about David?

That is when I told him about my spiritual experience the night before and how we were told by the Holy Spirit to look on the computer. I told him we had found this email he had written this guy in Denmark about outing himself to David. Well, then he was all upset and got angry at us for reading his email. He locked himself in the computer room and immediately wrote his friend in Denmark.

To make a long story, short, I eventually started writing this young man in Denmark. I was very much like Mary Griffith in the book/movie “Prayers for Bobby,” if any on you are familiar with that? I became involved in ex-gay ministries, and did everything to try and get my son to change. What I had to learn of course, is that it was “Me” that God wanted to change and I wrote a powerful ending to my book. My book “Prayers for Johnathan’ is a compilation of my letters between this Danish young man and myself. His name is Soren Jensen, and he was working so hard to answer all my questions and help me accept my gay son. We wrote day and night for two years and I was trying so hard to get him and my son to change and understand the parents side to this. Soren, and I both have unusual sense of humors, and loved verbal sparing. Johnathan, and Soren, allowed me to write this book to show that those on opposite sides of this issue how to be respectful and loving, even when strongly disagreeing.

For those of you who read my book, I want to make a disclaimer. This book is where I was at 12 years ago and a lot of the information in this book is out dated and I do not agree with anymore. So, for those of you who will read my book, it may make you angry or irritate the heck out of you at times. But, I hope you will be understanding and forgiving. I was just doing what I thought was best at the time. God has a way of teaching us that His ways are not Our Ways.

I would like to end with a quote from a gay man that wrote me:

Dear Bridget,

One day, you may well learn that it was a great gift not only to your son, but to you, that he is gay. There are things as parents that you will only be able to fully learn by having this experience. Sometimes I think we gay ones are not the ones being tested at all — no, we’re the great test of you straight people: can you REALLY truly love “the least of these” who are considered outcasts in god’s kingdom? I suspect it’s not HIS salvation on the line at all… but yours.

We gay ones are created as we are for a purpose. And that purpose is never limited only to ourselves. You have an opportunity — a huge opportunity — to actually live what “unconditional love” is all about. And I think you are already well on your way to truly living it with your SON.

Questions and answers Mormonism and homosexuality and my son.

1. Did your church leaders know about Johnathan being gay and was did he see counselors or therapist in the lds church for this? When we first discover our son’s same-sex attraction we did not want anyone in the church to know. We feared they might be judgmental or think we had been bad parents and raised him wrong. Because Johnathan was no longer attending church our bishop did ask my husband one Sunday why he wasn’t coming to church anymore. My husband broke down and told him why. This bishop was very kind and said that his dad thought he was gay once because he was so shy with girls. He told us about a lds counselor in our area with had experience with this and we contacted him. He was a very good counselor and our son saw him a few times. Johnathan really liked this counselor but decided not to go further because he did not feel he could change. Johnathan also attended some ex-gay ministries like Evergreen International supported by the lds church and a local Exodus meeting. We lived in Davenport Iowa at the time. He was not offended or pressured to attend these meeting and rather liked them but did not feel they were for him as he did not believe he could change. He had done enough of his own praying, fasting, paying tithing and getting a priesthood blessing by the age of 19 that he had pretty much lost his faith in God. Those in our lds congregation who know about our son’s same sex attraction, including our minister were nothing but loving and nice to him in general. He had visited with a new bishop (comparable to minister) a few times and this bishop asked him a dumb question like how could he know he was gay if he had never had sex with a guy. My son turned it around and asked him how he knew he was heterosexual before having sex with a woman. He got the point.

2. Where is Johnathan today with his beliefs in the Mormon church and God? Does he consider himself Mormon, or Nazarene, or just general Christian, or none of the above? Johnathan left the lds church when he was about 19 which is about 10 years ago. He lost his faith in God which was hard for him. He felt God had abandoned him since he did not cure him after so much praying and effort. Today, Johnathan still tells me about the good parts of being raised Mormon and what he misses. He is glad he was raised with good values to be honest, caring, to live the health laws in the lds church of not smoking, drinking, etc. He also still likes many of the lds teachings of people not going to hell just because they did not accept the gospel while on earth and that there is more than just heaven and hell. He still reads the first 4 gospels in the New Testament and watches utube videos of atheists who have had out of body experiences who came to Christ afterwards. He likes the teachings of Christ but does not have a faith that He is the Son of God. He still seems to fear that God does not approve of homosexuality and being accepted by God as he is.

3. What are the beliefs of the Mormon church on homosexuality today and what do you think about the Proposition 8 that the church was involved in? In your packet of information is the latest update on what the churches believes on homosexuality. It is taken from a recent book, called “Gay Mormons’ by Brent Kerby.

Here is what it says:

LDS’ Position on Gay & Lesbian People

(Excerpt from the introduction to “Gay Mormons? Latter-day Saint Experiences of Same-Sex Attraction” by Brent Kerby. He is a young gay graduate of Brigham Young University who accepts the Mormon teaching that all sex must be confined to marriage, and therefore, as a gay man, anticipates a life of celibacy. His book is not endorsed by the LDS church.)

Introduction

“Now, we have gays in the church. Good people. We take no action against such people — provided they don’t become involved in transgression, sexual transgression. If they do, we do with them exactly what we’d do with heterosexuals who transgress.

We have a very strong moral teaching concerning abstinence before marriage and total fidelity following marriage. And, regardless of whether they’re heterosexuals or otherwise, if they step over that line there are certain sanctions, certain penalties that are imposed. “

1. LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, Interview, 2004

Many ask, why are some people gay? Is it a choice? Can they change? And what exactly does it mean to be gay or same-gender-attracted? These are challenging questions which might not have simple answers.

Most of the people in this book describe being drawn to others of the same gender, loving them, and yearning for intimate companionship with them emotionally and physically. Many have never experienced attractions to the opposite gender, even after years of prayers and efforts. Others describe a degree of fluidity in their feelings, including at least a limited ability to connect romantically with the opposite gender.

Many have followed the Church’s teachings from a young age but have experienced feelings of isolation and shame as they realized they were different. Some, feeling worthless and condemned by God, have taken steps to harm themselves or even end their own lives.

Current Church viewpoints

In a 2004 interview with Larry King, when asked if being gay was something people were “born with”, President Gordon B. Hinckley replied, “I don’t know. I’m not an expert on these things. I don’t pretend to be an expert on these things.”3

In a 2006 interview with Church Public Affairs on same-gender attraction, Elder Dallin H. Oaks stated:

“The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations … Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.4

In the same interview, Elder Lance B. Wickman acknowledged that “one’s gender orientation is certainly a core characteristic of any person.” At the same time, he encouraged people not to place undue emphasis on this one aspect of their personality: “Find fulfillment in the many other facets of your character and your personality and your nature that extend beyond that.”

In a 2006 media interview, Elder Marlin K. Jensen stated:

“It has created a lot of pain for me just because I’ve known some of these wonderful people who have these feelings … I’ve sat with those that have tried for years to transition to a more traditional way of life and who haven’t been able to produce those feelings in themselves that would permit them honestly to marry …

[Their] choice has to be to live a celibate life. That is a very difficult choice for the parents, for the young man, the young woman, for whoever’s making that choice, and my heart goes out to them. I think we’re asking a tremendous amount of them … We, again, as a church need to be, I think, even more charitable than we’ve been, more outreaching in a sense.“

In 2007 the Church released a pamphlet, “God Loveth His Children”, addressed directly to members of the Church who experience same-gender attraction:

“You are a son or daughter of God … God does indeed love all His children. Many questions, however, including some related to same-gender attractions, must await a future answer …

Same-gender attractions include deep emotional, social, and physical feelings. All of Heavenly Father’s children desire to love and be loved …

Some people with same-gender attraction have felt rejected because members of the Church did not always show love. No member of the Church should ever be intolerant.6 “

This was followed by an Ensign article by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland:

“Although I believe members are eager to extend compassion to those different from themselves, it is human nature that when confronted with a situation we don’t understand, we tend to withdraw. This is particularly true of same-gender attraction. We have so little reliable information about it that those wanting to help are left feeling a bit unsteady …

[R]ecognize that marriage is not an all-purpose solution. Same-gender attractions run deep, and trying to force a heterosexual relationship is not likely to change them. We are all thrilled when some who struggle with these feelings are able to marry, raise children, and achieve family happiness. But other attempts have resulted in broken hearts and broken homes …

ome members exclude from their circle of fellowship those who are different. When our actions or words discourage someone from taking full advantage of Church membership, we fail them — and the Lord. The Church is made stronger as we include every member and strengthen one another in service and love.7 “

Controversy and clarification

In the October 2010 General Conference, LDS President Boyd K. Packer stated:

“Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?8

Many members interpreted this as saying that God would not allow someone to be born gay, that anyone could choose to be heterosexual. This seemed to run contrary to the official Church teaching that even faithful members “may not be free of this challenge in this life”, as “same-gender attractions may continue”. Ten years earlier, even President Packer himself had acknowledged, “That may be a struggle from which you will not be free in this life.” When the talk appeared on the Church website and in the Ensign, the word “tendencies” was replaced by “temptations”, and the question “Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?” was omitted.

President Packer’s talk came at a particularly sensitive time, as the media had been extensively reporting on a nationwide string of suicides by bullied gay teenagers. Critics argued that President Packer’s statements could feed into anti-gay bullying. The Human Rights Campaign delivered 150,000 petitions to the Church, claiming that the changes to the talk did not go far enough, and asking the Church to make a full correction. In response, the Church issued the following statement:

“My name is Michael Otterson. I am here representing the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to address the matter of the petition presented today by the Human Rights Campaign.

“While we disagree with the Human Rights Campaign on many fundamentals, we also share some common ground. This past week we have all witnessed tragic deaths across the country as a result of bullying or intimidation of gay young men. We join our voice with others in unreserved condemnation of acts of cruelty or attempts to belittle or mock any group or individual that is different — whether those differences arise from race, religion, mental challenges, social status, sexual orientation or for any other reason. Such actions simply have no place in our society.

“This Church has felt the bitter sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society’s leaders often seemed disinclined to help. Our parents, young adults, teens and children should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation whenever it occurs, including unkindness toward those who are attracted to others of the same sex. This is particularly so in our own Latter-day Saint congregations. Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment — to love one another.

“As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman. However, that should never, ever be used as justification for unkindness. Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel. His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down.

“Further, while the Church is strongly on the record as opposing same-sex marriage, it has openly supported other rights for gays and lesbians such as protections in housing or employment.

“The Church’s doctrine is based on love. We believe that our purpose in life is to learn, grow and develop, and that God’s unreserved love enables each of us to reach our potential. None of us is limited by our feelings or inclinations. Ultimately, we are free to act for ourselves.

“The Church recognizes that those of its members who are attracted to others of the same sex experience deep emotional, social and physical feelings. The Church distinguishes between feelings or inclinations on the one hand and behavior on the other. It’s not a sin to have feelings, only in yielding to temptation.

“There is no question that this is difficult, but Church leaders and members are available to help lift, support and encourage fellow members who wish to follow Church doctrine. Their struggle is our struggle. Those in the Church who are attracted to someone of the same sex but stay faithful to the Church’s teachings can be happy during this life and perform meaningful service in the Church. They can enjoy full fellowship with other Church members, including attending and serving in temples, and ultimately receive all the blessings afforded to those who live the commandments of God.

“Obviously, some will disagree with us. We hope that any disagreement will be based on a full understanding of our position and not on distortion or selective interpretation. The Church will continue to speak out to ensure its position is accurately understood.

“God’s universal fatherhood and love charges each of us with an innate and reverent acknowledgement of our shared human dignity. We are to love one another. We are to treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters and fellow children of God, no matter how much we may differ from one another.

“We hope and firmly believe that within this community, and in others, kindness, persuasion and goodwill can prevail.11 “

FOOTNOTE: KERBY’S BOOK, which includes the personal stories of himself and 23 other young GLBT Mormons, can be found online at: http://gaymormonfor um.org/gay_ mormons/

As far as the Proposition 8 involvement of the church, I disagree with them. I believe any church can have the freedom of religion to believe homosexuality is wrong and whether gays can hold callings in their churches, but to intercede in basic human rights civilly is actually against some of their own scriptures. Here is link that explains that: http://www.gaysandthegospel.org/

http://www.gaysandthegospel.org/scriptures/11-scriptural-reasons-to-oppose-prop-8.pdf

bridget_night wrote:

Ok, I put together a full report this morning of my presentation with questions included.

Wow Bridget, masterfully done. :clap: I believe that too frequently LDS persons are insular and fail to reach out to the community. Recently our town held an annual community worship service complete with jumping castles, a free BBQ, and a parade to honor first responders (it was on 9/11/11). We had to ditch Stake Conference to attend and we didn’t see any other LDS persons there. The next Sunday a guy in church (BTW a great, really humble guy) mentioned that he didn’t know anyone who wasn’t already a member. I was flabbergasted.

bridget_night wrote:

I am certain you will be the link to understanding for people who yearn to be one in spirit.

I am not sure that there is any higher compliment than this!