What are the odds?

depends on the person SD. i have a testimony of divine things yet i just can’t bring myself to go back to church on a regular basis. i go through periods where i feel very positive about the church and then periods where i feel negative..

In spite of being white collar, having served a mission and generally fitting in, I have similar feelings about “not being able to bring myself to go back to it”. I have this hope that some kind of a major spiritual blow-out experience might jolt me back into inward activity again. People have done it — Paul on the road to Damascus, Alma the Younger — not that I’m expecting anything of that magnitude, but the precedents have been set….and if it’s as true as everyone says it is, would not the powers that be reach out to help the man who wants a spiritual pull back again?

Some of our modern apostles actually are better examples – especially the one (brain freeze right now) who only served a mission because his girlfriend wouldn’t marry him if he didn’t.

Scott graduated from George Washington University with a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. At the time, he was dating Jeanene Watkins, the daughter of a senator from Utah. When she categorically stated that she would only marry a returned missionary in an LDS Church temple, Scott’s career plans changed and he applied for missionary service. He was assigned to serve in the Montevideo Uruguay Mission of the church. Jeanene graduated in sociology and left the day after graduation for a mission to the northwestern United States. After they both completed their missionary service, they married in the Manti Utah Temple. It was during his missionary service that Scott was able to fill “all the voids of loneliness” he had felt since his youth.

I had doubts during my youth. It was while entering university and being approached by a bible study group that things began to change for me. The study group arranged special meetings for me to show me the error of the LDS ways. I went to the Institute to find answers and with the urging of some senior missionaries, I enrolled in an institute class. As time passed I had two separate epiphanies/revelations at separate instances: one was that I had never doubted JS and that if JS was true everything else is true too, and the other was that if I did not serve a mission there would be an emptiness inside of me that couldn’t be filled otherwise.

I became a very strong believer reading much more than the standard missionary library but also not reading anything more controversial than M of F. This worked fine for me until my life circumstances changed and something subconscious inside of me rejected the “righteous living = obtain God’s approval = receive blessings” model as though my body had rejected a transplanted organ.

My problems were not historical. They were with the underlying assumptions upon which doctrines/cultural beliefs can be founded. My new worldview is built upon new assumptions that are not more true than the previous assumptions, they just fit and undergird my current life experiences in a way that allows me to move forward positively.

Sometimes I wonder if this new reality was born from a refusal to blame myself. When tragedy struck and I was was picking up the pieces in bewilderment of how this could have happened, the idea that I was to blame and that I should have prevented this was entertained for several dark days – but in the end it was so revolting to my psyche that it was rejected with such force as to fatally damage the structure of my worldview. My current assumptive reality is built upon new assumptions and it has taken time to piece it together. My participation at StayLDS has been helpful to this process.

Having been in a somewhat similar situation to Elder Scott in my youth and having had a similar conversion experience, I can see where that happens to particular people in particular circumstances. But now having been led down an altogether different path, I need to follow where this path leads while trusting that my Heavenly Father is with me. He may not have designed the path, but He designed me and He will not forsake me.

P.S. Elder Scott also experienced tragedy in losing 2 of his children. The various reactions that different LDS people have in the face of tragedy is a particular interest of mine. I do not have a clue what makes one person react in one way and another react in a completely different way but I theorize that it is both nature and nurture with very little if any choice sprinkled in. But then this theory too, is a reflection of my current worldview and the lens by which I see everything.

YOU have just changed your perspective.

Bingo. That’s all that is in our control – and sometimes we don’t have as much control even there as we think.

well SD, i was thinking a lot about this thread since you posted it, as well as other things relating to it, as well as what others have said here.

you had written:

In spite of being white collar, having served a mission and generally fitting in, I have similar feelings about ‘not being able to bring myself to go back to it’.

and of course I remember your thread “an unfortunate situation” and i have come to some conclusions:

it reminds me how things have been at places i have worked. i loved the work i did but i hated the social aspects of some of my work places. i guess church is not much different from the various work places i have worked at, and, generally, i think i can conclude that “us humans can really mess things up” when it comes to places we regularly congregate at – whether school, work, home, or even church.

we are not immune from the human imperfection element of where we congregate when it comes to church. that just seems to be how life is for us down here on “Mother Earth”.

the big thing for you and I, SD, is, “how do we rise above it and not let it suffocate the spiritual life out of us ?” or in the words of Nephi (2nd Nephi Chapter 31:20):

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

I guess SD, this is where we are at – how do we endure unto the end ? Dealing with the human element is hard for some of us and we find it discouraging and we think “oh boy ! here we go again !” :crazy:

Any ideas, any suggestions ? both you and I have testimonies but we get the life sucked out of us dealing with the imperfections of the human element in our church experiences – at least that is what I am tending to see.

I guess SD, this is where we are at – how do we endure unto the end ? Dealing with the human element is hard for some of us and we find it discouraging and we think “oh boy ! here we go again !” :crazy:

Any ideas, any suggestions ? both you and I have testimonies but we get the life sucked out of us dealing with the imperfections of the human element in our church experiences – at least that is what I am tending to see.

Ideally, I think the Savior would say you look at the people with charity, accept the hits with humility, forgive, and move on. Eradicate the pride which leads to sense of victimization you feel. Feed the good experiences at Church and starve the bad ones. Show kindness to them, your enemies….

However, I haven’t been successful at that. The hurt and damage these people have caused me seems to eclipse my ability to look upon them with the charity Christ would have me view them. The thought of serving them with kindness seems like injustice.

Also, I’m not really enjoying the “enduring to the end” concept. The word “endure” sounds like all you have to look forward to is white-knuckling and relentless pain and sacrifice for the rest of your life. Who can look foward with positivity and motivation at Church service through that lens? There must be a more peaceful, happier and sustainable way.

I don’t really know…what the answer is, perhaps Ray and Brian and the others have suggestions.

I guess I haven’t done a good job of this enduring to the end thing. I’m active now using the minimal definition of the term (I’m at Church about 7 times every 8 weeks), say opening prayers in Sacrament, and teach lessons occasionally on carefully chosen topics. I held a brief cubbing assignment for a while, and do home teaching. I duck out of meetings that I find disturbing. I keep my mouth shut. I could hold a TR if I want, but I let it expire since I have very little desire to go to the temple since it reminds me too much that it’s all about the organization first.

The only way I’m surviving is by putting boudnaries on what I’ll let these leaders extract from me given my prior experiences. No moving, no temple assignments, no storehouse, no setting up chairs, not drudgerous callings — unless I want to. There are also two women in the ward who circulated a very nasty note about me to the ward leadership which embarrassed me and threw me into depression two years ago. I have decided that I won’t participate in any future projects or callings or working alongside them in events, as their power to disturb my inner peace is far too great. It’s self-protective, not retaliatory, as they have shown very little remorse for their actions and i believe their jaundiced view of me may well lead to similar behavior again. I can’t handle that right now.

However, none of these are permanent solutions — all the alligators that got me last time are still able to get me again. Too bad testimony can’t just be enough!

Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

there is our answer SD. “for where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

you and i could meet in person with our loved ones and have our own church meeting. people of other faiths do it all the time and the Spirit is just as real !

this reminds me of another scripture:

Luke 19:49-50

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

i refer to this scripture because if we wanted to we could administer our own sacrament at our own meeting. it may say differently in the CHI but sometimes there are special circumstances that make it hard in our own ward to feel good about being there.

if we aren’t happy at the church we meet at then meet with others who aren’t happy with their congregation and have your own special service. “where 2 or 3 are gathered in Christ’s name, there he will be in the midst of them.”

i think that is a fair thing to do ! if it keeps up your spirituality, why not, right ?

I like the idea at first, but honestly, I don’t think you can buy into the whole priesthood authority concept, and believe you can have your own sacrament meeting without the Bishop’s authorization, except perhaps in the direst of circumstances, and even then, I can’t imagine what they might be. To do this would swing the ready, waiting, and swiftly acting priesthood authority to stamp out such activity. They may be slow in releasing people from callings, slow to respond to emotional needs of members, but in my experience, they act pretty quickly when organizational, position or personal interests are threatened. I think a Bishop would act pretty quickly if he heard a group of people were holding their own sacrament meeting outside the Ward. For a few reasons — not the least of which would be the SP’s reaction if he heard about it from the HC or some other member.

But I agree wholeheartedly you can have spiritual experiences outside the Church through informal gatherings. YOu can remember the savior’s sacrifice through testimonies and reading….I have had such spiritual experiences in my home with my family many times.

What I get from this, Roy, is that the answers you find, attitudes you develop, and coping mechanisms on which you rely depend largely on the “sources” you go to, in order to resolve the assumptive world collapse.

I think in my case, Church sources ceased being acceptable sources given their association with the priesthood leaders and all the high expectations associated with their callings, as put foward in the scriptures. Even turning to God was difficult because it appeared that after ponying up with the sacrifices of the calling I held, his own organization had let me down. I don’t think I ever blamed him, I just took a huge hit to my belief that all these grand claims we hear are actually true when the priesthood leaders behaved the way they did. It seemed like it was all for the cameras.

I guess what I’m proposing is to turn to those Church sources and directly to God again, and see if they work now that the ache has dulled, I’m tired of my story, and I feel fatigued from the current way of thinking. Perhaps I’ll be more open. And incentives are brewing to get a different perspective now that there are clear costs to being negative about the Church into the indefinite future (startling and breaking my kids development of religious belief, plus upsetting my wife).