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Something BLC mentioned earlier twigged this thought. We both acknowledge that we have testimonies. So, we’ve both had some kind of spiritual experience that we take to mean the Church is “true” — at some level. Yet neither of us seem able to go back to full-fledged activity. In my case, I am VERY comfortable with the idea the Church is “true” (at some level, perhaps not the level everyone touts at Church) but the leaders are not always or even regularly inspired. That when they say “The Lord told us you should be our next [insert calling here]”, I see it largely as hokus based on past experiences with egocentricity in Church leaders who need people to fill holes.
As a result, even when the Apostles and even Prophet speak, I take it with a grain of salt, sometimes inspired by it, sometimes rejecting the counsel after considering it. I even take the concept of the “only true Church” with a grain of salt, while still believing my spiritual experiences mean there is “something to it” and that I shouldn’t resign, quit or discourage my family from embracing it. I also see the organization as a business with an ecclesiastical arm which acts as a cash cow to fund its operations, and maybe even its businesses at one time, allowing them to get traction — not as Christ’s only church with a divine commission.
How can so many contradictions and qualifications exist on top of, or concurrent with, a testimony?
SilentDawning wrote:How can so many contradictions and qualifications exist on top of, or concurrent with, a testimony?
I don’t know the answer to that question. I’m just as anxious to eliminate contraditions as the next guy. I think this is a natural human tendency that is much more pronounced in some than in others, but in the end, consistency is an illusion that we create.
Quote:How can so many contradictions and qualifications exist on top of, or concurrent with, a testimony?
Because contradiction and paradox are an integral part of life; hence, “There must needs be opposition in ALL things.”
I don’t think it’s a case of “can” as much as a case of “do”. The key is accepting that those things simply are.
I agree with Ray. I also think it probably is best to take each contradiction you come across one at a time. What would you identify is “The Great Contradiction”?
Or do you have particular contradictions that bother you the most impacting your activity that we should discuss?
Heber13 wrote:I agree with Ray. I also think it probably is best to take each contradiction you come across one at a time.
What would you identify is “The Great Contradiction”?
Or do you have particular contradictions that bother you the most impacting your activity that we should discuss?
The Great Contradiction is that I have a testimony but I don’t believe it’s a divine organization anymore. I’m not proud of it. Don’t want to make sacrifices for it, and don’t feel I can recommend the experience to older, committed adults. Yet I have a testimony that it’s true — at one time, totally true, now, modified to “true at some level”.
It’s like saying God has told you that a certain object is black. In spite of that, I don’t believe it. It looks white to me. The testimony Map is not the actual Territory.
By the way, I’m active…but only by forcing myself to be that way. So, I am outwardly active but inwardly less-active.
It sounds to me like the contradictions are internal for you. I’m not sure I see the same contradictions you experience, which is probably obvious, huh? We all see things a bit differently. You doubt some things, but on the outside continue to attend church and say the same things others in the tribe say so you don’t ruffle feathers. I think you should give yourself some credit.
You still know at some level the church is true.
You continue to go and support your wife and daughter.
You are able to take leaders’ views with a grain of salt, but you don’t dismiss them all together.
But you are in a place where it will take individual effort to make your map match your reality. It is not an easy stage to be in.
It sounds like classic Fowler Stage 4, because there is tension there, which is what it seems you are expressing.
Quote:Stage 4 Individuative-Reflective faithis particularly critical for it is in this transition that the individual must begin to take seriously the burden of responsibility for his or her own commitments, lifestyle, beliefs and attitudes. Where genuine movement toward stage 4 is underway the person must face certain unavoidable tensions: individuality versus being defined by a group or group membership; This stage is marked by a double development. …This is a “demythologizing” stage. It is likely to attend minimally to unconscious factors influencing its judgments and behavior.
I have respect for you, SD. You demonstrate a great resolve to love and support others, and staying active in the church, even while you struggle internally with these things. Hang in there. I think, however, it may take a while, but eventually peace can come if you can get your map to match your reality.
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Heber13 wrote:But you are in a place where it will take individual effort to make your map match your reality. It is not an easy stage to be in.
Thanks for the kind words Heber.
The only reconciliation I’ve been able to come up with for the fact that I asked the question and got an answer “Is the Church true and should I become a member of it?” — is this.
At the age of 19, Mormoni 10:3-5 made sense to me was because when I was a teenager, a Protestant minister taught me to pray, and I did so one night. During that prayer, I was totally overcome with electrifiying energy followed by lasting, heavenly peace that lasted for hours afterwads. At that point, I knew there was a God. Not Christ, just that there was a God. The feelings were too powerful to be self-generated, too unique to mean anything else.
Four years later I met with the missionaries at the invitation of a good friend who was a Mormon at university. By the end of the discussions, I’d prayed regularly if it was true — expecting the same electrifying feeling that happened to me as a teenager if it was. This was my litmus test, as I trusted those feelings. I tried to get “an answer” repeatedly. I even read King Benjamin’s Discourse with my mormon friend, and then together we prayed and asked God if “The Church was true”. I got nothing. I eventually told the missionaries they didn’t need to come around anymore — after about 3 sets of them — due to lack of a testimony after sincere effort given multiple times, coupled with righteous living. I still went to Church occasionally.
During that summer I was away from Church due to distance, but I fasted for
three solid dayswithout food or water, praying regularly and reading the BoM. I got nothing when I asked the question. Nonetheless, at the time, I felt that other Churches couldn’t hold a candle to the LDS Church in terms of organization, questions answered, clear pattern for your life, clean lifestyle, etcetera. I questioned if I could be a member of any other Church if this one didn’t prove to be true. I shelved the question, but it always bothered me I never had an answer either way, and still felt drawn to it. About a full year from meeting the missionaries, on a whim, I prayed by my bedside and asked the question again — “Is the Church true and should I be a member of it”? I got the same electrifying energy experience that I had as a teenager, but not as powerful, but definitely unmistakeable. I joined the next week.
The only thing I can think of is that God didn’t think it was a stellar idea I belong to this Church. That’s why he didn’t tell me immediately or fulfil Moroni’s promise after I met all the requirements therein. That’s why he let me fast three days and said nothing. But I was persistent, and eventually, he told me what I wanted to hear – he knew that I was unlikely to get involved in other Churches after being exposed to Mormonism. He realized I was sold on the idea, and figured being a member of the LDS Church was better than being a member of NO church.
Perhaps now I’m seeing why he didn’t answer immediately. Perhaps he saw I would have repeated commitment crises and a lot of emotional suffering due to my idealism and expectations of this organization (brought about by its own claims, I might add) as well as the inevitable frailties of the leaders in it. Perhaps he knew that innately, I was a good person and lived all the basic clean life commandments easily WITHOUT the rules and punishments in our Church, and didn’t need them — other avenues would be OK, but I had not yet found them and had rejected them due to my exposure to Mormonism. But after persistence, he gave me the answer I wanted because perhaps, for a period in my life or forever, it would result in some net good, compared to not having it at all.
As a result, the only Stage 5 belief I can muster is this:
Quote:God leads people to different Churches if he thinks that Church will create some net good in their life eventually. He LETS them believe in absolute truths which may not be the actual territory, even blessing them, if it means it will net some good in their lives. Therefore, he lets men believe in truth within their own microcosms — even if such truth conflicts with the truths he reveals to other men, in THEIR personal microcosms.
Therefore, I wonder if the answer I received in prayer was suitable at that time. That believing everything literally was useful for a period of my life, but that I have now I have seen the truth about our Church — it is like any other temporal, man-made organization. It is one of many paths to salvation eventually. Perhaps Mormons will have to go through some major deconstruction as God reveals the master plan when this life is over. So will the Baptists, the Pentacostals, and also the Muslims. But given the powerful nature of God, we will all be satisfied with the end result.
Related to this, during the initial phases of my last crisis, I was incredibly moved by Ben Franklin’s statement, which I have quoted a number of times. That men who claim absolute religious truth are like men walking in a fog. They think they see all clearly. But from 300 feet, with vision that cuts through the fog, they are just as much in the fog as other men. All men THINK they see clearly within the range of their own microcosms and believe as staunchly as the rest. Only God sees through the fog, and knows the position of each man, and whether he is walking toward the end goal, as most of them are.
To extend the analogy, with men becoming Churches, perhaps He answers searching men who question if they should join other men (Churches). He lets them adopt their limited vision, and be partners with them in the walk toward the end of the field. To some men, he will say “Yes”, join with that man (Church). To others, he will say “No”. To the persistent, who may well abandon any walk toward the destination without guidance, He allows them to join with the closest and best fit for that searcher, even if it’s not the ideal one. He many never find the best partner, given the size of the field and the depth of the fog, but He may reach the destination.
Perhaps I am like the man who has realized we are all in the fog, and am seeing the entire field more accurately from 300 feet after years of experience. That this particular Church and its view of absolute truth, is only one of many.
This leads to a number of challenges that I would like to discuss later, but this is the only Stage 5 thinking I have been able to muster. It makes sense to me, although the implications for life within the limited view of Mormonism are a bit formidable.
I welcome comments….
SilentDawning wrote:Therefore, I wonder if the answer I received in prayer was suitable at that time. That believing everything literally was useful for a period of my life, but that I have now I have seen the truth about our Church — it is like any other temporal, man-made organization.
I think this thinking is really going from Stage 3 in one way, to Stage 3 in another way…but not really leaving stage 3. Depending on what you meant by it, it could be entering stage 4.
Stage 3: I thought I had the truth that all things were literal, now I see I was wrong and the truth is the church is a man-made organization. I thought I had truth when I was catholic, but when I converted to Mormonism, I know see the truth is found here. It is still stage 3, just jumping groups within stage 3. Stage 4: I don’t think there is any truth to be found in any groups. Why was I lied to and told there was? The fog means nobody really knows, and perhaps we can never know. There may be a God and a heaven, and all need deconstruction some day, but until then, the fog means we’ll never know right now. I’ll not join any group and not go to church at all, or I’ll just pick one and go with my family, but I don’t believe any of it. Stage 5: I found truth when I saw things literal AND I see truth that the Church is temporal too. Mormons have some beautiful truths. Baptists, Pentecostals, and Muslims have truth too. There are many paradox situations I can’t understand yet, but I gather truth wherever I can find it, and I love paradox more than the confinements of there being only “one way” to truth. I align and commit and subscribe to Mormonism because it works for me, and I let others worship how, where, and what they may. I make it work by taking responsibility for my spirituality and beliefs, and find the Church helps me, but does not dictate to me, what my spirituality is. I cherish the spiritual experiences I’ve had, even if I don’t know why they happen, or what they mean. I’m glad someone took the time read this and respond like you did Heber. For me, the post above yours was one of the most important posts I’ve made in a while. I see elements of my thinking in the last two categories, maybe a bit in the third category. I need to think about what your wrote so I can respond. Thank you.
Heber, I took what you wrote and grabbed the parts that I think are reflective of my current state of mind. I’m not in full agreement that the first couple sentences are Stage 4 thinking though, as you concluded above. I’m becoming more and more comfortable with the fact that not everything in Mormonism is literally true (such as the one true Church concept) while still being at peace with the fact that others believe in it literally. I wonder if that is the goal of Stage 5 — peace. Quote:I’m not convinced that absolute truth exists in any group. The fog means each group is blind to some extent of the truth, often introducing man-made ideas to further the aims of its leaders or organization, or goodheartedly believing these ideas are good for the general membership. Yet I’m comfortable integrating myself into a culture where such absolute beliefs are the norm, in direct juxtaposition with my own beliefs.
Mormons have some beautiful truths. Baptists, Pentecostals, and Muslims have truth too. I gather truth wherever I can find it. I align and commit to Mormonism because I feel I was led to be part of it at one point in my life. This, along with the fact that the members of my family benefit from it, make my continued involvement worthwhile. I make it work by taking responsibility for my spirituality and beliefs, by setting boundaries on the extent to which Church policy, leaders and culture can direct my behavior. I sort through the list of commandments and doctrines, deciding for myself the extent to which they are truly inspired, and the extent to which they are mere inventions of men of influence at the time they were conceived. I value the opportunities the Church provides to associate with good people, which also makes the experience beneficial.
Occasionally, the Church helps me, largely through the scriptures, interactive lessons, friendships with other members, and occasionally, the inspiring behavior of its members. I cherish the spiritual experiences I’ve had, even if my interpretation of the those spiritual experiences may be different, and more complex than when I first had them.
I’d be interested in seeing a short analysis of what I wrote above for Stage 3, 4 or 5 thinking if anyone cares to. I’m not sure what camp I’m in anymore. Other than I’m feeling more at peace with being a member of the Church than I was a couple years ago — dotted with the odd replapse of anger and sometimes just regret at times. SilentDawning wrote:I wonder if that is the goal of Stage 5 — peace.
I would suggest, that peace is the goal of faith, and therefore, the goal of all the stages of it, not just 5. The peace is just being sought from different angles. Don’t underestimate the value and power of stage 3, there is peace there. For most of my life, I had peace in that stage, and was not searching for anything else. But when I had a crisis, stage 3 could not sustain me. Prior to the crisis, I was at peace with it. I see most of my family still in stage 3 (as far as I can tell), and I never think I am more advanced or developed then they are, or have found a level of peace greater than they have.
Stage 4 is also seeking peace, but it is a tough one because it is about addressing tensions and conflicts. But the peace I seek in stage 4 is peace with my own mind, and less about peace with the group I identified with in Stage 3 or 2. It is because the tensions and conflicts forced me out of stage 3, that stage 4 is seeking peace with my own experiences and new information, and my own consciousness, willing to be open to other possibilities that my prior stage 3 thinking was never in my view. I just find that stage 4 is often very inwardly focused and a lot about self-actualization, and finding that peace. It is also one that may be hard to sustain, without withdrawal from groups to some degree.
These sound something like stage 4 to me:
SilentDawning wrote:I’m not convinced that absolute truth exists in any group. The fog means each group is blind to some extent of the truth,
SilentDawning wrote:I make it work by taking responsibility for my spirituality and beliefs, by setting boundaries on the extent to which Church policy, leaders and culture can direct my behavior. I sort through the list of commandments and doctrines, deciding for myself the extent to which they are truly inspired, and the extent to which they are mere inventions of men of influence at the time they were conceived.
I think this is very stage-5-sounding:
SilentDawning wrote:I cherish the spiritual experiences I’ve had, even if my interpretation of the those spiritual experiences may be different, and more complex than when I first had them.
Overall, I like your revised statement as a whole and think you can find peace as you continue to develop that. It is very well written, and points out how your faith benefits you.
As Brian often mentions, we do not all fit neatly in one stage, and there are limitations to Fowler’s theory, but it does provide some insight. I find myself moving from 4 to 5 to 4, or 4 in some things 5 in others … and even recently had some spiritual experiences and had the longing of being full blown back in stage 3 at church, but that longing for stage 3 was overridden by my deep thinking of things that would need to be shelved to truly be part of stage 3, and I am not ready to do that right now.
These are just my thoughts, mileage may vary. Thanks for sharing. I enjoy the discussion.
Thank you so much for comments made. I have struggled for many years with the literal belief that the church is the only “true church”. I am struggling to find my place within the church without believing all the doctrine. I chose to read some church history and it caused great stress and sadness within me. I shared my feelings of anger with my husband. At that point I felt like leaving the church. My question is can I enjoy the good aspects of the church without having a true “testimony” that it’s the only “true church”? These feeling of contradiction stir within me. My intention is not to be deceitful or dishonest. Any insight would be appreciated. jenlmorris wrote:My question is can I enjoy the good aspects of the church without having a true “testimony” that it’s the only “true church”? These feeling of contradiction stir within me. My intention is not to be deceitful or dishonest. Any insight would be appreciated.
In the end, only you can answer that question for yourself personally. There isn’t really a single answer that is right for everyone. Some people have to leave to make peace within themselves. Of course here, we encourage people to try and stay. In the general sense, yes. It is possible to enjoy the Church without a burning black & white, 100% believing “testimony.” You can find people here in this community that make it work, that have gotten to that point and enjoy being an active participant in the Church on their own terms.
From my observation, it seems like a number of factors come into play. Some people have the spiritual gift of precious and innocent faith. Some have the gift of faith to be inspired by and believe simply in the words of those with the gift of faith. Implied in that, unfortunately, is that some don’t get either gift.
Some people have to think too much about faith, poke it with a stick, tear it apart to see how it ticks, and question things.
🙂 I’m one of those people, so I know how it feels. Have hope though! It does get better. I promise. You will find your own way, and then your faith will be your own. You will own it!Quote:My question is can I enjoy the good aspects of the church without having a true “testimony” that it’s the only “true church”?
What Brian said. I can’t answer that for you, but I know it’s possible for many – many more than you think, I’m sure, in your own congregation and others.
I am about as orthoprax as it gets (meaning I “live” the Gospel in a way that everyone who doesn’t know me personally would assume I am a typical, traditional member), and I absolutely LOVE my life with the LDS Church – even though there certainly are aspects of the culture and current doctrinal interpretations with which I disagree to varying degree. I can accept the “only true and living” description – but only because I choose to parse and interpret it in a specific way that makes sense to me and isn’t dismissive of other churches. I’ve learned to roll with others who believe differently than I do – since I believe that is the real definition of Zion. (Elder Wirthlin’s and Sister Okazaki’s orchestra and crazy quilt analogies)
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