- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Hi, the topic name, for me, indicates that I made a couple of moves too fast and with
too much religious zeal in my life that has brought me to a very difficult situation,
like I am sure many of you have experienced it. This post is going to be quite
long and I don’t expect many to get to the end of it.
Since I’m a member in a part of Europe, where the Church is not very big, I will not
reveal details of my situation, for I’m afraid that if anyone from my social circle would
read my post and read my story, they would recognize me from the writing, and I do
have friends in several countries. Although I guess it really doesn’t matter; I would love
some confrontation, so what the heck.
I’m in my mid twenties now. To put it real simple, I grew up in a family with TBM parents,
both of who are converts to the Church. I am the youngest sibling, and also the “golden boy”
who never did anything “seriously stupid” (breaking the Wow, law of Chastity, etc).
I grew up always wanting to go on a mission. I was considered a bright, spiritual young
man and had a good standing in my ward and stake. When the time came for a mission,
I rejoiced and went with full enthusiasm into a foreign country, also in Europe. I served
valiantly, constantly being praised by my mission president as being one of the best and
most needed Elders in the mission. I trained early, was long time as a ZL and so forth.
I was on the top of my game.
During my mission, however, I had a couple of questions that I just couldn’t find a proper
answer to. One of my investigators, a seventh day adventist, said that he had been
praying and studying about whether the sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday and he came
to the conclusion it should be on Saturday. He basically bore his testimony on the spot. That
raised up two questions:
1) How can somebody outside our denomination have a “testimony”?
2) According to a lot of the stuff I studied on my misson later on, it made sense what he
said. How could it be that the Church would, based on such loose interpretations of the
Bible, make an official statement in the Bible Dictionary, that the Sabbath is on Sunday,
when the scriptures quoted actually didn’t apply?.
To be truthful, the actual day never really mattered to me, as I took the attitude of “well I think
it doesn’t really matter when we keep it as long as we keep it” just the fact that there were
some clear inconsistent statements within the Lord’s Church…
I had a great mission, for which I am grateful. It did, however, open my eyes for something
called criticism: at the end of my mission I came to the conclusion, that I need to respect
other religions more and be more open to criticism towards mine, since I spent two years
basically telling people that whatever their belief system was, was ultimately false. What
also made me think a little bit was the fact that one of my siblings (who was, during the
time of my mission, a ward mission leader, never having served a mission though) had
gone “anti”, as I regarded it back then. He mentioned a couple of the reasons, why he was
leaving the Church and I just bore my testimony to him, thinking that obviously he hadn’t
read his share of FAIR or FARMS. I decided that I was going to study all of these matters
(Book of Abraham, Joseph’s polygamy) through FAIR and eventually counter all of his claims.
FAIR worked for a day or two but then I became increasingly curious about what the “other side”
actually said about all of this. The thing is, I never considered that what I was doing as “Anti-Mormon”
research: I just wanted to read the facts, no matter how dirty they would be. I thought my
“testimony” was unbreakable, so it didn’t matter if I read the objective truth.
Now it took me some months after my mission to really get deep into these topics. Meanwhile, I
moved back to the country I served my mission at and began dating my now DW very seriously
(and very soon after my mission) and before we knew it, we were engaged. We also got married soon,
and soon after, a month or so, I started researching more and more; I guess I somehow had more time
all of the sudden.
Very, very quickly as I started this process, it became clear to me, that instead of there being a
couple of little food stains in the history and doctrines of the Church that just need to be wiped away
and everything will be nice and clean, there are quite a few very much unremovable black oil stains
there and that FAIR or FARMS are not going to give me very clear answers. I realized that some
things just can’t be washed away.
As you know how it goes, my world broke apart; doubt and mistrust overtook me and I was just the
unhappiest man alive. I wanted to die. I tried the praying and scripture study, but as my mother always
said, the people who stop going to church, always started by not reading the scriptures. Well, what
she missed was that there actually are other reasons than pure rebellion or laziness why people stop
reading; reading scriptures made me sick!
One night I told my wife about it. She was very sad (she’s as TBM as it goes) and pretty much said that
we don’t have a future if I lose faith. So I told her I’d find my way back to faith somehow. I started
seeing a psychotherapist (non-LDS) and my weekly visits with her were so necessary. I confided to
her about my church problems and we talked about my past and she helped me realize a lot of things
and get a grip in life. I started growing out of the TBM way of seeing life and more into an agnostic
person. I still respect God as a force, but I don’t buy the Mormon version of God.
I never stopped going to church. I always pray with my wife, mornings and evenings. I’m in a calling
with the young men. The young men’s leader trusts me very much (he’s said that) and I fulfill my
calling the very best I can.
However, my real views nowadays include a lot of very Church-contradicting elements. Most of the
time I’m not expressing my real thoughts, with my parents, spouse or other members. I can be
completely honest with my brothers as they both have gone (they arent RMs though) essentially
throught the same. Also my best friend since childhood, who is not a member, is someone I can
talk to and we see eye to eye. But that’s about it. My parents are still very TBM, and I can’t confide
to them either.
Basically, I now go through life, wondering everyday, what I should do about it. I’m newly-wed,
I’m a respected person in my ward and expressing my true opinions would cause a lot of damage.
I feel uncomfortable in my calling, because I’m not the best with teenagers nor do I have the necessary
conviction about Priesthood etc. to actually be a good example. When I accepted the calling I wasn’t
yet so far down the road. Now I am constantly afraid that I might be asked to serve as the Young
Men’s leader when the current leader and other counselor are likely to be released some time soon,
since they have served quite a while now. I cannot honestly say yes to that calling, but what will be
the consequences? I can manage being a counselor, but not a leader. I honestly don’t connect with
the Young men on a sufficient level to pull that off, nor could I be honest with my self and still do it.
If I say no, people are gonna know about it. My wife will start asking questions. My bishop is going to
want to know the underlying reasons. If I express these things, there’s no avoiding confrontation, but I
can’t go on lying all the time either.
Going to the temple doesn’t lift me up anymore either. My wife loves it, but especially the endowment
just depresses me. General Conference makes me skeptic about quite a few things they say.
Basically, here’s a list of what I believe and what I don’t
Believe:
– Book of Mormon is inspiring
– New Testament is awesome
– Jesus is the Healer of our souls
– General Authorities have good things to say as well
– Temples, as such, are good for relaxing and meditating
– God
– Afterlife
– Spirit
– Praying
– Church is a great place to gather as a group of people who share some common values
– Life’s purpose is life itself
– Priesthood, I kind of believe in it
Disbelieve
– Book of Mormon’s historical backgrounds as claimed by LDS
– Old Testament
– General Authorities being the voice of the Lord
– That gays shouldn’t marry
– That the Church is the only true Church through which salvation can be achieved
– That callings are always inspired
– The version of Church history we learn throughout our lives in the Church
– Endowment
– Satan & Hell
– That God would tell many people many different truths, yet expects that people amongst all
the confusion find the one and only truth
– Purpose of life
– Priesthood, I kind of don’t believe it
I could make the list longer, but see my point? My current world views just include a lot of thoughts that are
in no way in line with the Church.
And my real issue is; if I keep on acting, I might break down one day plus I’m lying to the person I love the
most, my wife. However, if I “come out of the closet”, so to speak, then it will destroy everything I have and
love right now. So acting is a way of keeping my marriage intact, yet not.
What also does not make things easier is that we live in the house where my wife grew up. The mom and dad
in-law are on a mission right now, but basically the rest of the in-laws live in a tops 15 mile radius apart. So
moving away could be a great solution, except that our rent is so low right now that it would be financialy
stupid and I can’t convince my wife to just see it from a non-financially point of view that it would be great
to move somewhere where we are both strangers, for example, and start fresh. So I am alone, my family
and friends are in my home country and I have nobody here that I can really trust with these kinds of things.
I’ve tried to poke some ice with a couple of people, but nobody dares to think the same way as I do.
So I guess I should somehow state my attitude towards the Church, as I am posting here and not on exmormon.
For me, right now, the Church is more of a social safe haven than anything else. I really don’t mind going
every freaking Sunday for the rest of my life or paying tithing and generous fast offerings either. I find a lot of
the talks at church quite entertaining, some of them very touching as well, and in general, going to church is a
nice habit. I am, despite my agnostic views, very Mormon in my ways and I guess I also don’t want to change
completely either. I like a lot of the people at church; some really bright people in there. What I would expect,
however, would be some intellectual integrity and just plain acceptance that I think the way I do. I guess I wouldn’t
have any problems at all, if I wasn’t married; however, now I can’t just go semi-active either, because then our
temple covenants are endangered and we will be separated after this life etc. Not that I really buy that, but OK.
So my biggest problem is I guess, how to deal with my wife concerning all of this. I love my wife very dearly.
She’s the light of my life, the best person I know and she’s just simply beautiful and hot in every way. If I could,
I would go back in time and tell my old self not to get informed about everything and just keep my head down.
But I guess this is the fate of every questioning, critical person out there. If I could, I would shut this part of me down
and just live happily ever after. But something says to me I shouldn’t. So here am I, writing on this forum, not knowing
what to do. Should I be honest with my wife, or should I rather not? I know enough not to confront her with every
dirty fact there is.
If you made it to the end of this monstrously long post, then I guess I just wanted to say that I don’t really expect
anything. I just needed to vent. If anybody, however, has anything to say, then I would gladly hear your opinion
or experiences. If anybody wants any details to who I am or where is exactly I’m living at or where I grew up etc.,
please ask and I’ll post, since it really doesn’t matter, I guess, whether somebody I know reads here or not; would
at least be a way of getting over with the situation some how, perhaps, were I to be confronted.
Anyways, I’m grateful to have the opportunity to write my story down in here, even if nobody read this. It’s therapeutical
in a way.
Love,
lordnasahan
I hear you — we have a lot of common elements on what to believe and what not to believe. I have a few suggestions. 1. Focus on what the Church is today. Relate to that. None of the people involved in all the bad history are alive today or in control. And they live by a different set of rules.
2. You have to do a cost-benefit analysis regarding your wife. Hot, perfect, inspiring, loveable — that’s hard to get. If she’s adamant that she’s going to leave you over this…well, can you live with that?
3. Regarding callings — tell them where the “bear and the buckwheat stand”. What you will and will not do. If you don’t feel you could be the YM President, then tell them that with whatever sanitized reasons you need to get out of accepting the calling.
One thing, when you get kids it only gets deeper and deeper.
4. Focus on the stuff in the Believing section of the list. You could give entire four hour workshops on many of those topics. So when asked to speak, teach, or be involved, really milk the parts you believe and teach off those. Ignore the stuff you don’t believe. If you have to confront it in a lesson, ask questions of the class and let them be the teacher, and then move on.
5. I’m glad you don’t have issues with tithing and fast offerings. that’s all I have to say about that one….
6. Regarding your wife. You might do well to read the most clear and practical philosophy of solid marriages at
http://www.marriagebuilders.com . The author talks about the dynamics of a happy marriage, and its based on things you DO to sustain love. I won’t go into all details, but one principle is PROTECTION — meaning, you protect yoru spouse from things that destroy love. For Mormon men, being uncommitted in the gospel hurts the spouse. I’ve learned that although my wife doesnt’ react too negatively when I start spouting off contrarion opinions, it’s having an impact. She raise it as a concern in our marriage the other day.So, I have to NOT talk about my contrarion attitudes around her. I look at it as protecting her. For, me, that’s what service is, in marriage….
Good luck my friend, and welcome to to the ride!
I never thought I would say this, but I am glad I am where I am at. You are right at the beginning of your journey. I feel so bad for you. It is a hard spot you are in. My husband, daughters and sons-in-laws are very active, believing members. I am happy that my questioning didn’t happen until after my girls were grown up. I am blessed to have an open husband who accepts me for what I believe. But I accept him and his belief and activity in the church also. Actually when we talk about different issues in a non-threatening way, we become closer. But it sounds like your wife is scared and doesn’t want to listen to anything against the church. As lots of people here will say. Go slowly. I was at the angry, mad stage for over two years and still get frustrated at times with the church. After reading different posts here at StayLDS, I was able to let go of most of my anger and just accept and love all people for where they are at. I still go to sacrament with my husband because I don’t want him to be alone but I head home after that. I don’t suppose there can be any negotiating? Anyway, good luck! This is the best place to be. It has helped me so much.
Thanks for your tips so far… I was seriously surprised for such instant replies 
and I guess I just need to learn some of that patience!
:silent: Also sorry for the weird formatting of my message, I sent itfrom my cell and it turned out weird… I’ll see if I can fix that. Negotiating? Well, I’m trying to take it slowly now, even
though it is killing me since I love direct confrontation (just get it out of your system so to speak), so playing it smooth is not a great strength of mine.
But for example, we are heading to the temple this weekend (it’s a six hours’ ride, can’t believe we’re going), and I intend on not going
to the endowment session but rather do like sealings or something, and when (not if) my wife asks why, I’m just going to tell her
just a LITTLE bit of why it’s uncomfortable for me. Probably not gonna go to the free mason stuff, but most likely just mention about how I don’t feel
comfortable about the signs and tokens and all the other pressuring elements. I hope she’ll accept that. So as to negotiating, baby steps!
Yes, I read the WHOLE thing. It’s a bit like reading about myself. I can sense your angst and the frustration of being stuck in an endless cycle of outward compliance with constant inward resistance, growing to resentment, and all the while not being able to communicate and be understood. I am only a bit further down the road than you are, and my main concerns are the same: how to find a way to live peacefully and genuinely, seeking my own way forward spiritually, while allowing my wife to be content and happy with her own spirituality. That can be a bit tricky in the LDS culture, which, it sounds to me, is similar in these respects whether you are in Europe or the US. Wishing the problem away won’t help. Learning to accept that things are what they are now will. I don’t know what the answer is, but I hope you and your wife are able to come to an understanding that works for both of you. I wouldn’t expect anything to happen right away, as the grieving process takes time. If it helps to think about it, you are not alone. There are thousands of people in some kind of similar position. The vast majority are just very quiet about their doubts and concerns — just like you are currently approaching it. We try to provide a constructive community here for all of us to get together and find an outlet, and a place to talk about it openly with others who understand. Welcome to our group! SilentDawning gave great advice. I can’t add much to it, except to emphasize going slow and focusing on your priorities. It took you 25+ years to get to where you are. It may take a few years to settle into a different paradigm, especially now that your life is connected to another person. If you want to stay together with your wife
MOREthan you want to be completely candid and authentic, that’s a decision. It is putting one desire over another through prioritizing. Life is full of tough cost-benefit decisions like that. It isn’t ideal or fair perhaps, but it just is how it is. It seems like you are dealing with your own internal sorting process in a healthy way. It sounds like you are pretty good at looking for the good in others, and being very patient. It may not feel that way sometimes. We all get the frustration. But it sounds like you are off to a good start with that. Patience and compassion are some of the best tools to deal with this situation, as far as keeping the family and friendship relationships we value intact.
In my opinion, the #1 biggest problem in LDS marriages when one spouse starts to doubt is the extreme literal views of a temple marriage and our notions of exaltation. I feel like a lot of LDS couples see each other too much in terms of filling an archetypal role which is simply a means to an end. We get married because we are supposed to, and we need a spouse to not fail at God’s plan for life, and it has to be a faithful spouse or everything we do is meaningless. But living life and love (marriage) aren’t meaningless. Not at all!
What I am getting at is this: I think it’s important during a faith transition to actively work on making our marriages better from a purely secular and psychological stand point. Because at some point, the all-encompassing religious meaning of it will come into question. The still-TBM spouse will face a relationship crisis at some point no matter how slowly and carefully we go. At some point, it will dawn on them that “Hey … I finally get it. My spouse doesn’t believe in it all the way I always thought they did.” That time will come. And you can spend effort now to shift the central focus and foundation of the marriage relationship to more solid bedrock — you actually LIKE each other, are friends, share culture and life goals, maybe the same tastes and hobbies, have a desire to raise children together with similar values, etc. Those are all great foundations for a marriage too! And none of them require a specific literal belief in particular religious dogma or views of history.
As you slowly reveal more over time (which will inevitably happen), make sure to also go out of your way to express your commitment and love to your wife. That has always been the most helpful in my experience, and from having talked to lots of people who go through this.
Glad to have you as part of our community. I look forward to your ideas and help too. We all benefit from each other’s experiences and stories.
added note: just so you know a little of my story, I actually have the opposite problem. I want to stay connected with the Church because I like it, even though I have been through all those doubts, controversies and problems with doctrine. My wife left the Church and wanted me to leave too. So I have been in the same types of arguments and talks about divorce, but with the polarity reversed. I run into pretty much the same problems, just at a different region of the faith spectrum. Instead of Doubter vs. TBM like most people who end up in places like this, my wife is anti-religion and I love religion, especially Mormonism (but from a non-literal perspective). I am also a tribal Mormon. It’s my culture.
Thanks for sharing your story, lordnasahan. What I was impressed with in your intro was that you recognize there are good things in the church, and with social connections. That is one thing I’ve become more comfortable with…that there is not just “one way” to be mormon, and you either have to buy it or you have to leave. Although it may seem scary about what others think, you can find a way to be honest with yourself and others and still participate in church by learning to know how to respond and talk with others. I think there is a way to do it, especially if you focus on Christ-like attributes and avoid the urge to want to “enlighten” others with what you found.
lordnasahan wrote:at the end of my mission I came to the conclusion, that I need to respect other religions more and be more open to criticism towards mine
I think this attitude can be nurtured and can be applied to those of other religions, and also those in the mormon community that think differently than you. It can work for both in and out of the church.
Finally, I think this becomes part of marriage…working out differences. If you had differences in political beliefs with your spouse, do you enjoy talking with each other about differing ideas…or just avoid conflict? It would be the same with faith, although some people believe the stakes are higher, and so it can be a difficult exercise in marriage. However, I’d just suggest you don’t try to convert your wife to think like you, or to feel your feelings are “wicked” if you don’t think like her. Just be open and honest with each other, and be humble to listen to her feelings and validate them. One approach might be to tell her you have some things you want to get a testimony of, but you just can’t believe it now and that you are open to the spirit guiding you. And if you both openly and honestly strive for more light and knowledge, that is all you can do. That is what the church teaches, right? That is what you learned on your mission, right? So follow that formula and patiently wait to see how it plays out…and in the mean time, enjoy church and the associations with others and the callings to let you serve, and all the other blessings the church offers.
Fwiw, I think the greatest command given “outside the law” was the first command given – to “cleave unto her and none else”. Adam chose to be cast out of the presence of God to stay with Eve. Iow, in a very real way, Adam chose his wife over God.I’m NOT saying one spouse has to or even should leave the LDS Church if the other spouse leaves. I’m not saying that at all. For some, that might be the only option – but I don’t think it is the “ideal” solution and I would not recommend it for the vast majority of people who are in a situation similar to yours. I believe each person needs to be as true to their own conscience as is possible, while being willing to make acceptable sacrifices to stay together (and I’m not referecing abuse in any way – which is a totally different discussion).
So, my advice:
Quote:Cleave unto her
– or, as Brian said, work to make your marriage stronger despite your differences in whatever way you can. Work to become truly “one” – since I believe God won’t split two-become-one. Our temple work (for the living, but especially for the dead) is the tangible “proof” of our belief in that principle – at least, imo. I believe it applies just as much to you and your wife as to any other two people – living or dead. Become “sealed” in practical terms, and I believe you will be “sealed” by divine declaration in the end.
I agree with your investigator. Two things which mainstream churches have always had wrong infant-sprinkling and Sunday sabbath. Both wrong. We practice full immersion adult baptism, but Sunday is not the Sabbath… never adequately explained.
Hi FF, SWK advises in “Faith Precedes the Miracle” to never live with In-laws. It sounds like your marriage is young. One of the best things that happened to DW and me is that I received a big job offer several months before the wedding and I moved to a new state than either set of in-laws. I came back for the wedding and then we drove off into the sunset to begin our new life together. Your situation is unique but it is something to be considered.
On a separate issue, the other day DW and I had a bit of a spirited discussion (see argument). I was saying that I wish she could validate my path and relationship to God, that I want her approval and admiration and it would mean a lot to me if she could recognize my journey as good and correct for me even if it isn’t the best path for her. DW said, “I do admire you for so many things, for how well you provide for the family, for the love and interaction you show to me and the kids, for your communication skills, for your memory, etc. – Why isn’t that enough?”
I realize now that I was being selfish. It would be just as unreasonable for me to expect DW to admire EVERYTHING about me as it would be for her to constantly bemoan my perceived spiritual deficiencies. Or to put it another way – She is choosing to focus primarily on the things that are good and noble in my character, would it not be just as reasonable for me to focus on the admiration she does give me rather than to constantly bemoan that she does not admire “X” about me.
I owe DW an apology.
Welcome to the group!
Your wife sounds like how I was a few years ago. There was nothing more important to me than finding that faithful, Peter priesthood kind of guy and to not settle for anything less. Well, I definitely didn’t marry the kind of guy I thought it would…pretty much the exact opposite of me to be honest. I’m an 8th gen member, he’s a convert of 11 years now. He tried to commit suicide on his mission, was ostracized by the members and even leaders and ended up at a church school where we met and married. Needless to say, he went through some really testimony-shaking experiences in his life. Add to that, none of his family are members (except an inactive sister) and his dads in jail for drug dealing. We kind of laugh about it now, (how different we are) and I knew about his past before we even started dating so it wasn’t a surprise and apparently not a deal breaker. My whole point in sharing this? Is that we change. We are all on a journey, you AND your wife. 10 years ago I might’ve been one of those members that ostracized him for coming home early. I’ve learned that I can’t possibly understand what he went through. I’ve learned to not be so by the book, and that the way my husband enjoys church is not the way i grew up in church. In a way im jealous of him because he could make of church whatever he wanted, wheras i was raised to be a certain way. I’ve learned that it is more important for me to have a harmonious marriage than to be right all the time. That doesn’t mean we don’t have our healthy debates but we pick our battles. We come from different perspectives, and we need to honor that. I’ve learned to be sensitive to his feelings, understanding where he comes from (his bout with depression, abuse, etc). Your wife can learn these things too, and be sensitive to your own unique needs. she will if she loves you, which it sounds like she does. It sounds like you’ve been trying really hard to keep it together for her. I don’t want to ruffle any feathers or cause any strife in your marriage, but I think it’s important that both of you bend for each other. She may feel that her way is the ONLY way to be, but it’s not, and she’ll have to realize that and meet you half way. For our marriage, it has made all the difference, granted, we never went through the situation you find yourself in, and boy do I feel for you, but I just want you to know that there’s hope, and that you both will change as you learn and grow and progress on your journey together. Welcome!
lordnasahan wrote:…I like a lot of the people at church; some really bright people in there. What I would expect,
however, would be some
intellectual integrity and just plain acceptance that I think the way I do. I guess I wouldn’t have any problems at all, if I wasn’t married; however, now I can’t just go semi-active either, because then our
temple covenants are endangered and we will be separated after this life etc. Not that I really buy that, but OK.
So my biggest problem is I guess, how to deal with my wife concerning all of this. I love my wife very dearly.
She’s the light of my life, the best person I know and she’s just simply beautiful and hot in every way. If I could,
I would go back in time and tell my old self not to get informed about everything and just keep my head down.
But I guess this is the fate of every questioning, critical person out there. If I could, I would shut this part of me down
and just live happily ever after. But something says to me I shouldn’t. So here am I, writing on this forum, not knowing
what to do. Should I be honest with my wife, or should I rather not? I know enough not to confront her with every
dirty fact there is.
I know what you mean. It would be nice if there was more intellectual integrity, instead of just accepting everything without thinking it through. It also would be nice to have differing views accepted.One thing that kind of helps me is remembering that we’re works in progress. I admit this is especially challenging to remember when someone says or does something to hurt me, but I once thought or acted similar to some in church.
About your wife… I’m in a similar situation with my husband. Every now & then we have major arguments – like when we discuss religion, so we mostly avoid that topic. When I first started realizing Mormon inconsistencies, I was very angry & I think it negatively affected our marriage. But now, I’m not so angry, & I try to reasure him that I love him etc. I think women especially need to feel reasurred that we can trust our husbands. Somehow, let her know that, although you may change in other ways, you will continue to have integrity & be there for her & any children you have. (Which is a whole other issue!)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.