finding my way

Welcome to StayLDS Wayfarer.

I’ve enjoyed our conversations at NOM. I haven’t been over here much in the last six months, but I’m starting to prepare to return to some level of activity, and these good folks over here are perhaps a little better at mapping a middle-way for active members than NOM.

Hi Wayfarer!

I’m excited to see you here. I’m really looking forward to hearing more from you.

I met Wayfarer for dinner earlier this week and we had a fantastic conversation. He’s had such a fascinating journey, and through that gathered a lot of really practical insights and wisdom.

Wayfarer,

Thank you for your introduction & welcome to the group.

You wrote:

…unable to accept either the life of a member, nor the life of a drunkard, and I had to find another path, and I did. Perhaps it started with recovery, perhaps it was the concept of a spiritual awakening — ultimately, though, my spiritual path ends up being personally mine, and independent of any organization or teaching.

I believe that alot of us, in the church, have made similar choices, feel the same emotions & if we are lucky (or blessed), find recovery.

Do you use Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)? I have & believe it saved my life. It was in AA that I learned the difference between being Spiritual & being Religious.

I think very few people can experience both.

After a few years, I went back to see my Bishop & explained where I’ve been. I discovered how little he knew about recovery & the AA program.

At the end of our talk, he started to talk about some of the members. As I was leaving I wondered what he was going to say about me. That is one of the reasons that I am reluctant to talk about my experiences with members of the church.

Now I’m trying to find my way back. I’m going to do it on my own terms. (It sounds like your quote.)

Right now, I can get through Sacrament meetings but Sunday School & Priesthood I have difficulty. It feels like claustrophobia & I can’t leave fast enough.

As they say, One day (or meeting) at a time.

Thanks,

Mike from Milton.

Welcome.

Wow. It sounds as if you’ve had a lot of interesting experiences, some of which I envy. I have found the Tao Te Ching, along with other “wisdom literature”, to be a great help to me, currently much more so than any other ‘scripture’ I have access to. I’d love to go closer to the source, mostly in order to satisfy curiosity, but I’m unwilling to make the sacrifices to do that. I’ll have to content myself with reading about the experiences of people such as yourself.

You must have something going for you in order for your wife to have put up with all of that.

the latter is a very good point. my wife has been clinically depressed in three rather significant episodes in our 33 years together. Yet today, we have as close of a relationship as we ever have had.

Her depression periods typically coincided with my periods of greatest challenge, but not quite in the order one would expect. Once the storytale nature of our mormon existence wasn’t quite working, we BOTH had independent reactions to it — she became depressed, and when i didn’t find a lot of solace in the church, i allowed my thinking to stray as well.

– the first episode was the post-partum depression coupled with my alcoholism stage,

– the second episode was the years-from-hell teen kids period coupled with my church research discoveries during the september six stage,

– and the third episode was very recent: menopause/empty nest coupled with my change in responsibilities to an insane travel schedule.

During each of the first two episodes, my wife, a very faithful TBM, could not accept the idea that she may need medication to help her deal with the chemical changes and challenges she was going through. She got through by becoming more faithful, more rigid, and more ritualistic in her practice, in order to get to the point that she could handle life on life’s terms. I checked out, i guess, and that certainly isn’t the right path at all.

In the third case, menopause and my travels, she came to the realization that medication might actually be necessary, and has found a balance that works. Likewise, since my travel was necessary, and not a case of me checking out, and I think it ultimately did us some good — helped her get more independent, helped me appreciate her better. And, not going to church together, church wasn’t the answer to all our questions any longer (it never really was, but for a TBM, she wasn’t there yet).

I have come back to the US for a little while, and because of all my travel miles, she’s been hopping all over the place, having a great time. She went to visit a daughter, SIL, and granddaughter in central america a week ago, and I realized in the airport sending her off, how important she was in my life. This was a bit of I don’t know what to call it. sappy I guess.

She doesn’t like it when I express my distaste for the church’s political positions and the narrowmindedness of some of its members, but at least we’re communicating and unified.

I don’t have any clue why I’m saying all this — just what i feel right now.

I’m fascinated with how you can find Church service rewarding. It was the lack of fulfillment associated with Church service that led me here for support. Then I read a lot of doubts and became associated with the gaping holes in the history, and then started questioning just about everything I’ve been told over the years, while still maintaining I’ve had spiritual experiences that LDS folks will call “testimony”.

Service, to me, is what i bring to it.

Today, I participated in a funeral of a friend in the church. She had severe reumatoid arthritis, and yet was a friend to many. she was in my choir for many years when she was able, and always gave me a very hard time. For her funeral, she insisted that I sing a solo — she knew I hated to get in front of people and perform solos, so it was her payback time. Her husband was sure she would be laughing ‘up there’ as she had me go embarrass myself. I sang a setting of ‘Jesus the very thought of thee’, and it went ok. The accompanist was also a friend, with whom i worked in an interfaith conference years ago. we were all edified by the experience in so many dimensions.

my favorite service in the church is cleaning the toilets in the chapel when our ward has responsibility to tidy up the chapel every third year. the duty to tidy up rotates through the families, i guess, due to cuts in budget. At any rate, the chore of cleaning the toilets is considered the worst. Yet for me, cleaning toilets has deep spiritual significance. you may think me a nut-case, but the idea of anonymously making life pleasant for another person is the most divine type of service. sure, it may not matter to most, but for me, when I get into a toilet and it’s clean, i appreciate someone who made that happen. as well, there is a scene in the movie gandhi where he has an argument with kasturbai-ji (his wife) about cleaning latrines — to her it was work for untouchables, but to him, there was no untouchability. And, cleaning toilets, in principle, is similar to what jesus did with the disciples in John 13. He washed the filth (excrement was common in streets of jerusalem in those days) off the feet of his disciples, what was then the lowest, most menial work for the lowest of slaves.

i think the hardest calling to accept was when i was called to be ward mission leader. At the time, i was very much not aligned with some of the history of the church, nor did i feel that the church is the ‘one true church’ it is made out to be. As well, having been a seventy in the days when that meant permanent missionary calling, i hated the work. Yet, i did it, because for some reason i felt good about the calling. In teaching people and supporting the missionaries, i found that i could give them a balanced perspective of the church and I focused on the more important principles: eternity life is here and now, grace and works go hand in hand, how we serve one another brings heaven into the present. and, during my term as WML my daughter was called on a mission, and we were able to relate, week by week, our shared views on the difficulties of the work, and how we make the best of the moment.

i am not one to put stock in anything supernatural, but i do believe we can make purpose out of our situations. Some may say, ‘everything happens for a reason’ — my take is that we can often find reason within almost anything that happens. So, in the case of service, it’s to me what i put into it. I’m fortunate now that my travel has put me in the position that I have no formal calling — i really only go to church about once a month or so. but to serve doesn’t require a calling and maybe it’s better to serve without one. it all depends.

cheers!

I love the 12 step program – better example of soul-searching repentance than many superficial ones. I also realized that programs like that are helpful for a time, & then beyond that it’s time to move on & leave the negative labeling.

The following comment is not related directly to the post, but . . .

That is a good description of our traditional “steps of repentance” – a good starting point, but something we need to move beyond to understand repentance fully (as an empowering movement forward toward progressive change [“growth”], not just the negative labeling of hindsight remorse). I’m convinced that the primary reason most members don’t understand repentance better is that they aren’t habitual sinners in one addiction-level rut (where step programs work the best), so they obsess over things that are simple transgressions for which the price has been paid already and turn them into sins for which they need to feel guilty. That conflating of transgression with sin keeps people from moving from a shallow, preparatory repentance to a deep, full repentance.

I’ve linked to this post in other threads, but for anyone who hasn’t read it already:

“A Fresh View of Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html)

I love the 12 step program – better example of soul-searching repentance than many superficial ones. I also realized that programs like that are helpful for a time, & then beyond that it’s time to move on & leave the negative labeling.

The following comment is not related directly to the post, but . . .

That is a good description of our traditional “steps of repentance” – a good starting point, but something we need to move beyond to understand repentance fully (as an empowering movement forward toward progressive change [“growth”], not just the negative labeling of hindsight remorse). I’m convinced that the primary reason most members don’t understand repentance better is that they aren’t habitual sinners in one addiction-level rut (where step programs work the best), so they obsess over things that are simple transgressions for which the price has been paid already and turn them into sins for which they need to feel guilty. That conflating of transgression with sin keeps people from moving from a shallow, preparatory repentance to a deep, full repentance.

I’ve linked to this post in other threads, but for anyone who hasn’t read it already:

“A Fresh View of Repentance” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html)

Thanks for sharing your perspective, Ray.

A part in your blog reminds me of the idea of finding & maintaining our first estate – the essence of who we really are spiritually.

I like what you mentioned about taking repentance to a deeper level.

It reminds me of the scripture about not being luke warm or else we’ll be spit out. 🙂

Of course living passionately comes with risks – risk of taking it too the extreme – addiction. Yet, I think Jesus was teaching that he’d rather we LIVE life & learn, than be too scared of screwing up & thus be “luke warm.” Consider when the woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears & Pharisees questioned him for allowing someone “unclean” to touch him & Jesus said, “Her sins are forgiven because she loves much.” Or when Jesus said (paraphrasing) “Either way, I can say thy sins be forgiven thee, or arise & walk – it’s the same.”

Sin – at it’s root, is incorrect/harmful thoughts (& subsequent feelings & behavior). We know that thoughts & related e-motions have influence on physical health, not just on behaviors. So, the root of repentance is really the essence of any good mental therapy – correcting thoughts (which correct feelings, behavior & can even improve physical health). I think love (which is God) is hoping & striving for what’s best, through trial & error (faith). Of course we often don’t always get it right – but what matters is our heart/intent – that we’re hoping & striving for what we think is best & we live & learn.