How much should be shared with priesthood leaders?

Simple answer from me – absolutely nothing.

What the person is willing to share, knowing full well the potential consequences of doing so.

I share a lot of things, but I have the social capital and the “presentation ability” to do so without causing much concern – and I do so selectively and appropriately to the situation. I’ve spent a lifetime learning how to do that. I couldn’t do it in my youth or early adulthood, but I’ve learned how to do it now.

I don’t think there are absolute, universal answers for most things – and this is one of them.

Use the spirit of discernment. Somewhere between nil and all is the right number, based on trust. Trust comes from experience. There are some bishops who are amazing when you talk with them about issues and can truly help you. Then there are the 99%.

Sorry to be cynical, but if they could truly empathize with your doubts, they probably wouldn’t be bishops, right? If they are more administrator than therapist, I would not say much to them.

I don’t know. As I’ve gotten older and been kicked around by life, I tend not to be “judgmental” of anyone unless they’ve clearly committed an act of dishonesty AND I’m in a position to judge (which seems to happen only in my role as a father or college professor on academic integrity issues right now). And even then, it’s only after a lot of thought and angle-consideration.

But if I was in a position to judge, like a Bishop, if someone came to my doubting their testimony, but showing support of his family in the Church, attending at least once or maybe twice a month, and wanting to participate in an ordinance almost immediately, I”d consider the potential for participation in the ordinance to help strengthen testimony because “In the ordinances of the gospel, the power of God is manifest”. I’d also consider the potential that denying the person could have on hurting his or her already fragile commitment, as well as the impact on future generations if this heavy-handed judgment pushes him off the rails.

Maybe I’m too nice, or just naive…but after life has run over you a few times….it seems prudent to be a little nicer than you think should be. Some of the tails people tell about their priesthood leaders I find rather unsettling. They simply end up alienating people….

What the person is willing to share, knowing full well the potential consequences of doing so.

For me, it is the prospect of potential consequences that has me concerned. The church is not very well equipped to deal with doubt. I understand the unofficial rule to be that doubt is ok as long as you keep it to yourself. Now it would seem that confession to your bishop is not a breach of the keep it to yourself rule, but it seems like the prospect of getting put on the (hypothetical) apostasy watch list is at least as likely as getting a listening and understanding ear. Why take the risk? The risk reward ratio just seems out of whack.

I guess what I’m hearing from you is, “Go ahead and share whatever, as long as your membership standing in the church (official or otherwise) isn’t very important to you.” Would you care to clarify?

In good faith, people share what they believe — and then find themselves denied privileges unless they do something like pay some tithing for a while, give a yes or no answer, a statement of literal belief.

So, this begs the question — just how much should one share with their priesthood leaders about their doubts, concerns or other contrarion ideas about the Church?

I answered this thread above with the word ‘nothing’ in multiple languages. I’m quite serious.

The inherent problem is that the BP is the ‘judge in israel’, not a spiritual counselor. When you have a major sin to confess, then the right thing to do as part of the ‘repentence’ process is talk to the BP, with the likely prospect that Church Discipline will follow. The BP does not forgive sins, but rather, lays out the punishment path so that you have adequately ‘repented’ of those sins.

In courts of justice, one has a counselor that advocates for you and advises you of what you can do. In the Church system, your advisor, the BP or SP, is the investigator, prosecutor, judge, and executioner, and you throw yourself at his mercy when you talk to him. That may be appropriate if you don’t care about the outcome, but if you do, it’s not a very merciful system, and does not allow for ‘advice’ without consequence.

So, in the scenario, you go to the BP or any other priesthood leader with an honest interest in sorting out disaffection or doubt. Sitting on his side of the table, he has to interpret what you’re saying as ‘confession’ because you need to repent of something. The obvious major sin that involves ‘doubt’ is ‘apostasy’. So the only tools he has to offer are the means to punish your apostasy and prevent you from contaminating his ward or branch. If your an MP holder, then it gets referred to the stake.

It doesn’t have to be this way, but it often is. Remember, the BP and SP are “Judges in Israel”, not spiritual counselors. If you have a sin to confess, want to be released from a calling, or need a TR interview, set an appointment with the BP. If you need spiritual advice on your doubts as to the authenticity of the church… well…. here we are… I’m really not sure there is another answer.

In courts of justice, one has a counselor that advocates for you and advises you of what you can do. In the Church system, your advisor, the BP or SP, is the investigator, prosecutor, judge, and executioner, and you throw yourself at his mercy when you talk to him. That may be appropriate if you don’t care about the outcome, but if you do, it’s not a very merciful system, and does not allow for ‘advice’ without consequence.

It doesn’t have to be this way, but it often is. Remember, the BP and SP are “Judges in Israel”, not spiritual counselors. If you have a sin to confess, want to be released from a calling, or need a TR interview, set an appointment with the BP. If you need spiritual advice on your doubts as to the authenticity of the church… well…. here we are… I’m really not sure there is another answer.

The most concise and erudite summary of the problem I’ve ever read! [Salute to Wayfarer] :clap:

I agree that less is best with leadership. Tell them as little as possibly in order to get what you need done. I consider myself, like Ray, pretty skilled at talking about this stuff without freaking people out. But this never goes well. It doesn’t. Go ahead and try it if someone feels the need. I haven’t seen it work though.

There really isn’t a reason to dump all this doubt on them. We sometimes have this feeling that we want a leader to validate what we are thinking and going through. We want them to tell us “Yeah, you’re right. That is a problem. You’re not crazy. I think that too.” It would make us feel better.

But that isn’t going to happen. Actually, it shouldn’t happen. We need to become comfortable from the inside out in order to be spiritually healthy and get through this transition as strong souls. Getting validated and comforted from the outside in hampers the process.

Like Hawkgrrl pointed out, it’s very unlikely someone in one of those positions is struggling with doubts and concerns too and can sympathize fully. I’ve tried skimming the surface of controversy a few times with leaders when they got a bug about trying to fix me or fix my wife and our “problems.” Within seconds, I see the deer-in-the-headlights look on their face. The conversation shifts awkwardly. I let that happen. We move on to talking about other things, and the meeting ends pleasantly.

End result: we’re not a project anymore and get left alone. I’m happy at Church anyways when i’m there, so why poke me with a stick? I’m not causing trouble.

I’ll share the gist of one conversation. To preface it, I want to say that I really liked this Bishop. He was a good man and really cared about people in the ward, was very tolerant and loving, and was great at running the ward. I worked with him in scouts a few years before he was called as Bishop, and got to know him pretty good. Just wanted to say all that first before anything below sounds critical.

BP: I wanted to meet with you to find out how we can help your wife feel loved by the ward. I am sure I can resolve whatever issues she has because I have a strong testimony of the Gospel and what it does in our life. I know the world isn’t perfect, but the Gospel is and it’s made a tremendous difference in my life [he’s an adult convert and grew up in a very rough home as a child, which he shares with people]. I’ve talked with critics of the Church and that hasn’t lessened my testimony (he meant evangelical Christians in the area).

Me: I don’t know if it’s really something you can resolve. There are some tough controversies out there in our history. I know as much about the details as she does, probably a lot more. In fact, I love history and studying religions. This whole topic is a hobby of mine, and I write on these topics regularly. I agree with her that there are serious problems, and that her issues with history and doctrinal development are based on pretty accurate background information. I decided differently on how to react to them though, so I still want to be a part of the Church.

BP: What specific problems does she have? I can’t think of anything that difficult to resolve.

Me: Well, if you really want to know… I would say some of the main concerns she has is with Joseph Smith’s implementation of polygamy in the Nauvoo timeframe, also connections between Freemasonry and our temple ceremonies that came about at that same time. She has concerns about how people of African decent were denied the priesthood for so long, and the subsequent doctrinal explanations and justifications until it was changed in 1978. And I would say she also has concerns about there being many different historical accounts given of our most important foundational events — like the First Vision story or how the Book of Mormon was discovered and translated.

How’s that? That’s probably a good surface review of the issues she has.

BP: [long awkward pause] [shifts around in his chair a bit] Well, I don’t read a lot of books about that stuff. I’m not that familiar with all the nitty-gritty details of Church history. But I know the Church is true from the bottom of my heart. I know how important the Gospel is in our lives, and that if we learn to follow the Savior; we will be blessed.

Me: I understand what you are saying. There’s a lot of beautiful teachings in the Church, and I find benefit in trying to follow the example of Christ. I like being a part of “the work.”

BP: So how is everything else going for you guys? Are the kids healthy? Is everyone doing OK in school? [changing the subject]

[chit chat follows about normal everyday stuff]

BP: Well, let me know if there’s anything we can do. Let [your wife] know we love her.

Me: Sure thing BP! Will do. Thanks for caring about me and my family. I appreciate it.