"But I disagree with the Prophet on that one"

Yes, and I have done so on multiple occasions – to regular members and leaders. However, I have learned how to say things in a way that doesn’t seem “challenging” (because it’s not), which makes all the diffrence in the world. (One of my former Stake Presidents got to the point where he would look at me whenever someone said something about which he was sure I disagreed and wait for me to explain why I saw it differently. I really love that man.)

I’ve had some negative reactions, but almost always it has led to good discussions – and almost always it has been received in the spirit in which it was given. (I don’t live in cwald’s branch. I probably should make that clear right upfront. )

My response to the question is “only if really pressed.” Normally I would divert the conversation before it got to that point. I am trying to work toward the place where I can say anything from my heart in a way that most members would accept, and I think I making great strides toward that goal, but I still tame my frankness on some topics.

I would also tend to answer the question with a question. I would point out that: “you probably disagree with some of the things that past prophets have said (Adam-God, etc.) …would it be more wrong for you to disagree back in their time than it is today?”

You also have to be very aware of who you’re talking to. Some conversations will always be a dead-end.

Just curious — do you feel you could ever say that to a Church member or Church leader, as a reason for perhaps not agreeing with a certain principle or doctrine? Why or why not?

I certainly do say to church members and leaders that there are problems with certain doctrines. But i don’t think it does any good at all.

Here are examples of where LDS official doctrines, i.e. taught by the first presidency and accepted and practiced by the church, have had negative consequences:

– Accepting that women are entirely dependent upon men for their salvation leads to abusive marital situations and lack of self-esteem.

– The condemnation of masturbation, an inherently natural act for most teenagers, as a sin next to murder, leads to serious emotional issues for a significant percentage of young men.

– The requirement to pay tithing as a regressive tax, with eternal penalties if you don’t can lead to unhealthy financial decisions, and does not consider the weightier matters of the law, to give to the poor.

– The 1972 letter of the first presidency making birth control essentially a selfish sin led to a situation where Utah County had the highest incidence rate of child abuse until the FP withdrew the teaching.

– How the doctrine of polygamy was instituted and how it was removed had disasterous affects on families and individuals in its history — a history largely hidden from view (yet my family has the scars from it).

– The discrimination against blacks with respect to the priesthood was a life-destroying practice, furthering a system of apartheid in the church. At a very minimum, blacks were denied the blessings of ‘eternal life’ by virtue of this policy for over 120 years.

– And finally, Proposition 8 inherently sanctifies the bigotry among members of the church against gays, lesbians, and others.

The last point has special resonance for me:

Before my daughter came out as gay, we spent years on suicide watch with her. It was so common, that when I would tell my colleagues at work that she had tangible plans for her next suicide attempt, they thought I was callous. She really tried to be a faithful member, but the guilt associated with her feelings crushed her self esteem and her very existence. She was not a practicing gay through all this suicidal period. Once she came out, she has never felt the need to commit suicide since, and this is now 8 years later. We kept her close to the family, and tried to continue to have her incorporated into our church participation. Once the church took the position on Proposition 8, my daughter no longer identifies with our family in terms of religion or spirituality at all. The door is closed. hard.

Given all this evidence, can anyone honestly say with absolute certainty, “If you follow the brethren you will never be led astray”?

There are cases of some who stay in unhealthy relationships because of the eternal marriage covenant…..and who also cause lifelong rifts in their non-member families due to the one year waiting period penalty for civil marriages…

I have one question though — how did the labelling of birth control as a sin lead to child abuse? I don’t see that connection.

in the 70s, super popular BYU religion teacher george pace convinced thousands of couples that BC was sin based on the 1972 letter, and thousands of byu couples had as many children as biology would allow. with children having children before they were financially and emotionally ready, child abuse skyrocketed in utah county. the church had to send out a bulletin with a modified instruction, and george pace was told to cease and desist.

agree on the eternal marriage from hell concept…