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Long before I started to have serious issues with the Church’s truth claims I already had major difficulties with the overall costs of full activity in the Church combined with lack of confidence that these sacrifices would ever pay off for me. I was perfectly willing to give the Church the benefit of the doubt about most of their teachings but it seemed like the more attention I paid to some of the strict legalism, demands for extreme sacrifices, and exaggerated guilt-trips I typically got out of Church lessons and talks the more discouraged I felt as if it was nearly impossible to do everything they ask for and expect out of average Church members. One scripture passage that really got to me was the following: Luke 14:28-33 wrote:For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?…Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,…Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish…Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?…Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace…So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.When I read this I thought to myself how unfortunate it would be to do most of the major things the Church asks for like full-time missions, fulfilling time-consuming callings, and paying tithing year after year only to end up falling short due to some of the seemingly endless potential weaknesses and sins of omission (D&C 58:26-29). In that case, it seemed to me that it would have been better to simply save yourself the hassle ahead of time and not do any of this because it seems like “better than nothing” is just not worth much in the LDS Church. This is one reason I didn’t want to pay tithing again until I felt completely ready to give maximum effort because otherwise I thought it would be pointless anyway. Maybe most members interpret these ideas differently or don’t pay much attention to them to begin with but personally I don’t see any way around this conclusion other than not taking scriptures literally and ignoring many lessons and talks.
What’s worse is that this all-or-nothing mindset extends to all kinds of expected beliefs as well. For example, it is not good enough to go to Church and jump through all the hoops because the Church also demands that members should believe it all as well and tries to enforce this “testimony” concept in temple recommend questions. I guess it is just another side-effect of the idea that Church leaders and accepted scriptures are almost always right and overprotective reactions to losing members over many generations but personally I think this lack of flexibility will backfire when an increasing number of members suspect that without much confidence that they will ever receive the promised blessings it could easily turn out to be the Church itself that is no longer better than nothing from their perspective. As painful as it was to lose faith in the Church in many ways it instantly made me feel better because some of the perfectionist ideals were hard to take and now I feel free to dismiss them as simply a case of men being men that probably don’t know any better.
I share some of those same feelings DA. However, I remember reading a while ago (if you need me to find the source, ask and I’ll dig it up), that even after prophecies failed to come true, members of a faith group often strengthen their commitment and belief in a system they are fully vested into. The blessings often become self-affirming to those who see it that way. IOW, if they see it is worth the commitment and effort, then to them it is. If you don’t, then to you it’s not.
I guess I think that my local leaders and ward members will continue to strive to live up to the standards that stretch them and will find blessings because of it. And because they find those blessings for themselves, they will see others that fall short and come up with their reasons that make sense to them for it.
I guess I have just started to try to not worry about how oths see my actions or views, but just make my own assessments of sacrifice to benefit analysis and choose for myself what is worth doing to stretch myself and what items on the buffet I choose to pass up on, and not worry about. I think at this point, I don’t feel a lot of support for my approach from others, I just have to do it on my own based on what I want to do or don’t want to do, and I feel God knows my heart and is helping me learn from it.
I do everything I can to maintain what I feel to be a good balance – and nothing more. Iow, I worship according to the dictates of my own conscience. I know there are people who wish I did more, but they also know I’m doing everything I think I can do. They know I’m a “believer” (even though they know I believe differently about lots of things than they do) – so they cut me slack.
I believe “something” is better than “nothing” in just about everything.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Long before I started to have serious issues with the Church’s truth claims I already had major difficulties with the overall costs of full activity in the Church combined with lack of confidence that these sacrifices would ever pay off for me.
…In that case, it seemed to me that it would have been better to simply save yourself the hassle ahead of time and not do any of this because it seems like “better than nothing” is just not worth much in the LDS Church. This is one reason I didn’t want to pay tithing again until I felt completely ready to give maximum effort because otherwise I thought it would be pointless anyway.
I agree, as Heber mentioned, that the spirit of the law is most important.And I relate with how Ray explained how he worships according to the dictates of his own conscience.
Tithing has been a concern, lately, after realizing the extreme poverty in the world – the great need and that scriptures actually specifically state that tithes are significantly intended for the poor (Deut 14:28,29). I used to feel a little guilty paying my tithing to humanitarian funds, despite feeling that it was better than the church’s tithing fund abyss, but those expenditures are not openly transparent in the church either. So, now, I pay tithes directly to benefit the poor – couldn’t be any more transparent and I feel better about it.
I think following the dictates of my own conscience is better than giving my all to something that goes against my conscience… trusting in what I intellectually and spiritually believe to be right, despite what others are telling me.
It is just as likely we die and we are judged for the time wasted on temple work and a myriad of other things the church requires that produce little. I can see God saying I gave you intelligence and you followed blindly. I gave you strength and you wasted it on mundane and non producing activities. I gave you my inspiration and love and you turned it into guilt. This is why it is critically important to try and ascertain for yourself what is vital and what is not. At least that way you will produce efforts that are important to you and not a hierarchy. Just because some men came up with activities they claim get you into heaven does not make it so. I would much rather stand before God and suffer the consequences of my actions based on my own intelligence knowing I did my best, than try to claim I followed someone else regardless of my own feelings or intelligence. Many people I know find great validation and inspiration from following the brethren and their rules and activities. It gives them purpose and focus. The challenge comes when they say you have to behave the same way or else you are marginalized and cast out.
How might God respond if you said this in return to his statement that you wasted your time… Quote:
The way the world is structured I found it impossible to determine what the truth was about the purpose of my existence or the requirements to get there. I looked hard for years, applying my intelligence every step of the way. I prayed to you, often fasting, and read widely. This only led to confusion. Science was largely silent on most of the issues that vexed me — so I went with the religion I thought approximated what You expect from me, the best. Sure, there were times I felt it was a waste of time, but I did it because I felt you wanted me there, and because the promised rewards were in eternity. I think I might have felt other activities were a waste of time too in other religions, but I did it out of obedience. And this was not without precedent, as we have the example of Abraham and others who sacrificed without practical results — according to one interpretation that was widely believed in many ChurchesI agree with everything Cadence said. :thumbup: SD, I think your response is pretty fair. Do the best you can do and I think we’ll be received as good and faithful servants. I’ve had few prayers answered as of late, but the few I have had this past year or so have been feelings of comfort and reassurance that I’m doing ok, and I can keep trying best I can and that is acceptable. I think that would be a consistent message even after this life. I also have hope God has given us prophets, scriptures, religions, and other sign posts along the way to help us…I just have to be looking and finding them (And I think many of those signals are outside the church, and I personally feel I am supposed to widen my gaze and not limit myself to only obeying without questioning what I have in the church).
I really like what Cadence said….it may be understood if we obey because we thought we should…but it even seems better if we tried to find all ways to spend our time most wisely according to our conscience, and asked questions to learn, not just seek answers from leaders, but seek experience through our own revelation and faith in God and through doing something about it to learn from our actions what kind of person we can become, including allowing ourselves to make mistakes in the process.
Featherina wrote:I think following the dictates of my own conscience is better than giving my all to something that goes against my conscience… trusting in what I intellectually and spiritually believe to be right, despite what others are telling me.
+1
Fwiw, I think God is far less judgmental than people tend to think. I think he wants us to do the best we can based on our own best understanding of what we should do. I believe, “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” doesn’t need any qualifications when it comes to people (as opposed to their actions, in and of themselves).
I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that – and I’m fine with the complex result of that belief.
Heber13 wrote:I share some of those same feelings DA…However, I remember reading a while ago (if you need me to find the source, ask and I’ll dig it up), that even
after prophecies failed to come true, members of a faith group often strengthen their commitment and beliefin a system they are fully vested into. The blessings often become self-affirmingto those who see it that way. IOW, if they see it is worth the commitment and effort, then to them it is.If you don’t, then to you it’s not…I guess I think that my local leaders and ward members will continue to strive to live up to the standards that stretch them and will find blessings because of it. And because they find those blessings for themselves, they will see others that fall short and come up with their reasons that make sense to them for it…I feel God knows my heart and is helping me learn from it. Certainly many members feel like they are blessed and already on the right track and well on their way to the Celestial Kingdom. I guess my main point is that this is not necessarily what the scriptures and comments by LDS prophets and apostles say if you try to take some of the most discouraging ideas literally. For example, who can honestly say they have done all they could do (2 Nephi 25:23) and that they have succeeded in completely overcoming the natural man once and for all (Mosiah 3:19)? Also, there is currently not much encouragement for members to do the best they can short of the expected standards of temple worthiness and fulfilling callings so any less committed members that could still be willing to participate at some level end up feeling like there is no place for them in the Church and they typically avoid it completely.
Personally, I think the way so many different things in the Church end up being all-or-nothing (tithing, WoW, testimony, etc.) currently does much more harm than good when you count all the inactive members and consider their overall impression of the Church. Unrealistic expectations can be very unhealthy when people end up feeling depressed or disappointed about things that don’t need to be nearly as big of a deal as the Church tries to make them sound. At the same time, putting so much emphasis on all-or-nothing standards like temple recommends and callings can also make some members overly complacent and self-satisfied because they think they are already doing everything they are supposed to so then they overlook worse problems and character flaws than anything covered by explicitly stated Church requirements.
I know I have yet to receive any of my tithing blessings….kinda makes it hard to keep the faith. I am at the point now that I do what I can in living the way I can to make it back to heaven. It’s all I can do at this time, and if someone doesn’t like it they can bugger off. I don’t think God is nearly as harsh in his condemnation as humans are, I don’t think he is going to have a bunch of TBM in the CK, I think it will be righteous people from all religions and walks of life…much to the bewilderment of many members of the church.
Arwen, what a great post! Thanks, I needed to hear that. From my personal experience, I have wondered lately if God realizes it is time for me to learn something important…and that prayers or tithing blessings need to be withheld so I can really get to the tough questions, and begin to let go of expectations of blessings. Because I still believe in the past I did get blessings from tithing, and I did get answers to prayers on specific things like who to marry, jobs, decisions on finances, etc. (at the same time, I no longer view God directly intervening in my life that much, but I choose to hold on to the sacred experiences in my past and not redefine them.) Basically, I honestly feel the Lord knew I needed to grow, and for me, that is by taking this new approach to my faith, and come to realize more of exactly what you wrote…
Arwen wrote:I am at the point now that I do what I can in living the way I can to make it back to heaven. It’s all I can do at this time, and if someone doesn’t like it they can bugger off. I don’t think God is nearly as harsh in his condemnation as humans are
My heart tells me the same thing, Arwen.
So…is paying tithing still “better than nothing”…or does it help you whether or not any of the Church claims on blessings in this life or the life hereafter are ever really going to happen?
Cadence wrote:…I can see God saying I gave you intelligence and you followed blindly…I gave you my inspiration and love and you turned it into guilt…Just because some men came up with activities they claim get you into heaven does not make it so…
I would much rather stand before God and suffer the consequences of my actions based on my own intelligence knowing I did my best, than try to claim I followed someone else regardless of my own feelings or intelligence…Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw,
I think God is far less judgmental than people tend to think…I think he wants us to do the best we can based on our own best understanding of what we should do.I believe, “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” doesn’t need any qualifications… Arwen wrote:I know I have yet to receive any of my tithing blessings….kinda makes it hard to keep the faith…I am at the point now that I do what I can in living the way I can to make it back to heaven.
It’s all I can do at this time, and if someone doesn’t like it they can bugger off. I don’t think God is nearly as harsh in his condemnation as humans are…I like all these answers. Basically, I don’t see how any kind of God that is worth paying attention to should blame me for not believing or going along with some things the Church continues to insist are absolutely right and necessary given the information I had to work with. How do we know God really cares that much about what exactly people believe to begin with? Assuming God exists, it looks to me like he is almost certainly not in the business of providing simple well-defined answers that everyone should be expected to agree on in most cases.
Quote:Assuming God exists, it looks to me like he is almost certainly not in the business of providing simple well-defined answers that everyone should be expected to agree on in most cases.
Yeah, I think that’s safe to say.
Loved your comment, Arwen.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Assuming God exists, it looks to me like he is almost certainly not in the business of providing simple well-defined answers that everyone should be expected to agree on in most cases.
DA, how do you respond to apologetic arguments that would suggest God has given us the answers defined well enough (even if not in total) to prophets and recorded in scriptures…so not only does He care, but he is giving us materials to find the answers, and fully expects we use the intellect (as Cadence referred to) to come to these answers?
(I’m not putting myself in that apologetic camp, just putting that hat on for a minute because I’m interested how you think about that.)
Heber13 wrote:Arwen, what a great post! Thanks, I needed to hear that.
From my personal experience, I have wondered lately if God realizes it is time for me to learn something important…and that prayers or tithing blessings need to be withheld so I can really get to the tough questions, and begin to let go of expectations of blessings. Because I still believe in the past I did get blessings from tithing, and I did get answers to prayers on specific things like who to marry, jobs, decisions on finances, etc. (at the same time, I no longer view God directly intervening in my life that much, but I choose to hold on to the sacred experiences in my past and not redefine them.) Basically, I honestly feel the Lord knew I needed to grow, and for me, that is by taking this new approach to my faith, and come to realize more of exactly what you wrote…
Arwen wrote:I am at the point now that I do what I can in living the way I can to make it back to heaven. It’s all I can do at this time, and if someone doesn’t like it they can bugger off. I don’t think God is nearly as harsh in his condemnation as humans are
My heart tells me the same thing, Arwen.
So…is paying tithing still “better than nothing”…or does it help you whether or not any of the Church claims on blessings in this life or the life hereafter are ever really going to happen?
To be honest I have a real hard time paying tithing, because it is spent on temples. Now, don’t get me wrong, I love temples, understand the need for temples….I just don’t understand the need for the thousand dollars worth of crystal chandeliers. I get the Lord wants the best, but IMHO I think he would rather have us spend that money on other people. I also have a somewhat Jewish idea of God and money…I’d just as soon throw the money in the air, tell God he can keep what he wants and what falls on the ground is mine. I live other principles because I want to, not because of promises of getting to the CK. That’s how I am wired, if I believe it is a good and righteous thing to do, I do it with my whole heart. If I don’t understand the logic behind it (i.e. tithing) then I tend to be more skeptical about it all. Of course I also believe God gave us brains and wants us to use them, and that one of the reasons we are down here is to make mistakes. If a ship simply sits in the nice little lagoon and never faces any rough waves or storms, whats the point? He didn’t send us down here to forgo going out on the ocean. I like to think of Eve, she knew partaking of the fruit was forbidden, but also knew that things wouldn’t progress if she just did nothing. I truly believe one of the reasons we are here is to make mistakes. My mistakes have taught me that I can only do so much right now…and pushing it will lead me failing.
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