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delete please People react differently to offense; people define offense differently; etc. Also, there are plenty examples of people who really were offended in ways that any reasonable person would have a hard time accepting and not distancing themselves from the offense.
I agree totally with Elder Bednar’s talk about the responsibility for taking offense being mine – BUT there really are plenty of cases where the responsibility, ultimately, lies with the offender, imo. The extreme example is child molestation (and extreme abuse of any kind) – but that also points to how loosely people can define “offense” and stretch it practically beyond useful definition.
It’s offensive to me that people think I left the church because I was offended. Wh wh wait..no…
Firstly, I’d like to point out that the “offense” aspect is greatly overemphasized by active members, it is not as common a reason for inactivity as they think it is.We have a lady here, who’s been basically hounded by another woman. She’s extremely obese and probably has confidence issues. It’s sad, she seems nice and I’ve always enjoyed hearing her testimony. I haven’t seen her in 2012.
Another example, a friend of mine, who is active, but was inactive for a while, once asked his bishop about Christmas, because he lived alone. The bishop told him “we don’t deal with things like that.” Which I thought was harsh, since he was away from his home town, and has a speech impediment, so finds it hard to get to know people.
Yeah, claiming others left because of offense puts the blame on them, since taking offense is their fault, right? :crazy: There is a great recent post on BCC entitled “The Greatest Threat to My Family” (seriously, fabulous post) that includes the following statement – one of the most profound I’ve read online anywhere:
Quote:“Sometimes it seems to me that we try to outsource our sin: that rather than wrestling with our status as sinners, we wrestle with our status as basically good guys who live in a stinkhole, and we pontificate on the best ways to hold our noses. I am not denying the power and influence of our various moral environments, but in my personal struggle with sin and my tiny steps in coming closer to God, I would appreciate more introspection and self-examination. The gospel has the power to save us from the influence of the world, but it also has the power to save us from our sins if we are willing to see them.”
BeLikeChrist wrote:there was a general conference talk a few years ago about being offendedetc. etc…why is it that some people drop out of church after being “offended” ?…a couple of times i have heard of individuals who had gone to their bishop and gotten horrible advice. that is the catalyst that makes them wonder: “is this really the true church ?” (etc.)…what do you think ? what are your thoughts or ideas on this ? I see the way many Church leaders and members like to portray those that have fallen away as weak, lazy, and/or and lacking in faith as mostly an excuse to avoid facing the real issues such as the fact that many people could actually have good reasons for leaving the Church or being inactive. Sometimes it is painful for TBMs to consider that there could actually be some things that are seriously wrong with the Church itself. For example, of course most people will want to sin if you have re-defined what sin means in such a strict and intolerant way that many things that do little or no harm and are considered normal and expected behavior by most of the rest of the world are now impossible to live with.
Of course people will lose confidence in the Church if they are spoon-fed whitewashed history and doctrines their entire lives only to find out about some of the worst problems with the Church’s story after they have already invested so much in the Church. Claiming the Church is perfect even if the members aren’t doesn’t necessarily help most of the ones that really do feel offended by the way Church members act. If too many Church members are not very nice and use established Church doctrines and traditions to justify their obnoxious behavior then some people are going associate it with the LDS Church as part of their overall experience with the Church.
I agree that the excuse for people going inactive or “apostate” is too often blamed on them for taking offense. I still go to church and yes, I’ve been treated very badly by some over the years, but I’ve also received a lot of love & compassion.
At times I probably could’ve been kinder & at times I’ve given love & compassion. We learn from each other.
What makes me question aspects of Mormonism is not the imperfection in my ward members… it’s EVIL that I’ve found to be in the church.
I refuse to accept the evil teachings & practices that inspires depression (Utah, which is 70-80% Mormon, leads the nation in anti-depressants).
I refuse to accept the evil that finances are gathered through spiritual threats of damnation & lack of worthiness, & that finances are kept hidden, much invested in multiple corporations and likely not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite many scriptures indicating tithes are for the poor.
you make a good point DA:
Quote:I see the way many Church leaders and members like to portray those that have fallen away as weak, lazy, and/or and lacking in faith as mostly an excuse to avoid facing the real issues such as the fact that many people could actually have good reasons for leaving the Church or being inactive. Sometimes it is painful for TBMs to consider that there could actually be some things that are seriously wrong with the Church itself.
Featherina touches on some of those cultural issues below:
Quote:I refuse to accept the evil teachings & practices that inspires depression (Utah, which is 70-80% Mormon, leads the nation in anti-depressants).
are there cultural norms in church culture that could cause individuals to get depressed ?she also said:
Quote:I refuse to accept the evil that finances are gathered through spiritual threats of damnation & lack of worthiness, & that finances are kept hidden, much invested in multiple corporations and likely not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite many scriptures indicating tithes are for the poor.
this comment or observation begs the question: could the church be doing more to help the poor ?Ray said:
Quote:I agree totally with Elder Bednar’s talk about the responsibility for taking offense being mine – BUT there really are plenty of cases where the responsibility, ultimately, lies with the offender, imo.
You make a good point Ray. Even President Hinkley shared the story of his friend who was once active and left church and felt bad that he failed to help his friend back to the faith.Featherina wrote:What makes me question aspects of Mormonism is not the imperfection in my ward members… it’s EVIL that I’ve found to be in the church.
I refuse to accept the evil teachings & practices that inspires depression (Utah, which is 70-80% Mormon, leads the nation in anti-depressants).
I refuse to accept the evil that finances are gathered through spiritual threats of damnation & lack of worthiness, & that finances are kept hidden, much invested in multiple corporations and likely not a penny of tithes go to the poor, despite many scriptures indicating tithes are for the poor.
I think a lot of it depends who the local leaders are, who the local members are and how they deal with it.
I find the teachings about gays right now pretty distasteful, although I have to admit it’s not something that really affects me directly. (There was one missionary here years ago, who was desperately camp)
I’ll be honest, there are plenty of things I don’t like, but there are ones I do like.
I think the other comes with how we deal with these things ourselves. More on that later.
Quote:Utah, which is 70-80% Mormon, leads the nation in anti-depressants
I think there are probably reasons for that which lie both in and outside the church. America seems to be a “prescribed” nation AFAIK, where chemical laden food is given to people, and then they take other chemicals to counteract the effect of that. It’s also a nation which relies on the automobile, meaning people don’t take enough natural exercise outdoors, or walk somewhere that’s only a mile away. Because of that people don’t get fresh air, enough sunlight etc on top of a processed diet.
But it’s not just America. We’ve got plenty of people on medication around here, but very few Mormons. In our case, drink, drugs, bad diet, lack of sunlight, urban and housing conditions are all partly to blame. Depression is common here amongst farmers (high rate of suicide), office workers (flourescent lighting), young males and females with body issues.
The problem inside and outside the church is perfection. Women especially are really susceptible. But men are being worked on. Look at all the impossibly good looking people on TV, films and magazines – it gives us an unreachable goal, and advertisers use it to destroy our self-confidence to sell us health and beauty products, as well as all kinds of other trash we don’t need. In the church, our magazines show beautiful happy people, nuclear families in nice homes. Life isn’t like that.
But, there definitely are factors within the church.
I’ve said this previously on multiple sites, but I really, really dislike using anti-depressant use as a sign of evil. First, Utah isn’t all-Mormon – but, most importantly, I want people who are faced with depression to get therapy and/or medication for it – and I’d MUCH rather it be prescribed and not self-administered. Medicine helps people, and I don’t like ripping on cultures that (it could be argued very well) encourage their people to take advantage of modern medicine.
/end of rant
I was sitting in church when Elder Bednar gave this talk. Sitting in front of me was a friend who had been very wounded by people. She physically reacted and jumped up and ran out of the room. I ran out after her and spent some time calming her down. When talks like these are given and and it is not stressed that some are truly emotionally bleeding from the wounds inflicted in the house of their friends, it can cause more bleeding. My friend has remained in the church despite tremendous opposition. I am so proud of her. I so wish there was a little more emphasis on looking around us and asking , “Is it I?” So many times, I have been very aware that certain people know they are being hurtful and they flat don’t care! I can never understand why so many do not ever see a need to apologize even when they know they have misbehaved.
I also agree with Ray that we shouldn’t ever give the impression that medications for emotional/mental illnesses should not be used. I once heard an LDS physician speak at a RS meeting and indicate that depression was caused by spiritual issues. It didnt’ go over well with many of the sisters.
delete please I understand, blc – but depression runs in the family for some of my close friends, and it’s chemical, not societal. These people would be depressed no matter their surrounding culture – and blaming it on the culture obscures the physiological cause. Let me say it this way:
1) Utah is in the Western Rockies. That region has the highest rates of suicide and depression in the country – even in states with very low Mormon populations.
2) Mormon women tend to have more children than non-Mormon women, and they tend to have them closer together (often without a whole lot of “recovery time” between the births, unfortunately). Post-partum depression is common, so having multiple children close together would tend to cause depression to “linger” and trigger more common diagnosis and treatment.
3) Mormons tend not to self-medicate. Thus, prescriptions are used FAR more commonly than non-prescription treatments employed by many others.
There are more, but think about something else:
People who blame Mormonism for depression are saying, in subtle ways, that all Mormons who are depressed need to do is change their religious beliefs. That says depression among Mormons is NOT physiological but rather psychological – and that means prescribed medications aren’t necessary or “the best / right answer”. That’s not any different, at heart, than saying, “Pray harder.” It’s just the other side of the exact same coin.
To tie this back to the post and keep it from being a complete threadjack, people who suffer from depression sometimes leave the Church because the “Standard Sunday School answers” don’t work. If they buy into the anti-depressant percentage argument, they will leave and think the leaving will cure their depression. It won’t, and they will have lost the support network many of them had in the middle of their depression. Then, they will blame the Church for their depression worsening. It’s a vicious cycle I’ve actually seen, and it’s caused, at the root, by not admitting the physiological, chemical nature of their depression.
delete please Quote:i don’t think, Ray, that you can completely take out the possibility that some aspects of church culture could have an affect psychologically on individuals getting depressed or individuals becoming inactive.
Absolutely. It’s more than a possibility; it’s a certainty. However, that’s true of ANY “culture” that has “standards” / “expectations” and people inside / affected by that culture and those standards / expectations – especially since there are people who are prone to depression in every culture. I believe passionately in reducing elements that lead to depression, to the greatest degree possible without causing even more damage, but I just don’t like equating use of anti-depressants with “badness”.
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