- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Sitting in GD today, much of the discussion seemed to focus on Nephi’s sword made of fine steel. As the discussion progressed, i noted how much energy was spent in speculating about the historical nature of the accout…what a steel bow might have been in those times…how a steel bow would have had very short arrows, hence Nephi also fashioned new arrows once he made his wood [long]bow. how wood suitable for bowmaking is only found in one place on the arabian peninsula… in my impression, none of this is real. according to nephi and mormon, two things about the Book of Mormon should be kept in mind: It is not a literal history, and it was written for us in these days. and, according to scientific evidence, the Book of Mormon cannot be a historical record in a way consistent with its claims of origin. The more i learn about the way in which it was created (it was not translated, but rather, revealed to Joseph Smith’s mind and heart through a seerstone), the clearer it gets that any attempt to literalize it is a waste of time, and misplaced energy.
Maybe it is supposed to be that way.
if we were discussing a great book of literature, then no-one would be woried about the anachronisms like “steel” or “horses”. these would be evidences of the author’s limited understanding of actual facts, but not material to the purpose of the story. instead, we woild focus on what the story is trying to tell us, and how that applies in our lives.
so, in my impression, we need to comletely set aside literalism when discussing the Book of Mormon. perhaps this could be an outcome of understanding that the fantastic truth claims of book of mormon origin are likely false: that the book must be considered ‘inspired fiction’ and not history. and, in so doing, one comes to a new papradigm for understanding its message and purpose.
Start a petition. I’ll sign it. doug wrote:Start a petition. I’ll sign it.
it was just irritating that we waste the majority of class time justifying our literal belief. It’s as if the church is under attack, and we need to make sure the members are drinking deeply from the flavor-aid each week.then the second hour, ‘fifth sunday’, a TBM psychologist got up to talk about depression. she quoted something in Job, and I commented that if we strip Job of the hokey story around it — the one where god makes a bet with satan — we see that ‘stuff’ like depression can just happen, and the stock, seminary answers stated by Job’s friends aren’t very useful. She got flustered after my comment — apparently intimating that something isn’t literally true in the bible affected her train of thought.
Then, later in the presentation (powerpoint, of all things), she listed what you could do about depression: pray more, read scriptures more, go to the bishop, live the word of wisdom… there was a perfunctory comment that maybe if these don’t work, you may consider counseling, psychotherapy, and potentially hospitalization. I found it extremely disappointing coming from PhD psychologist. AND, SHE was the one who suggested reading “RSR” in relief society book group this month. go figure.
Sorry if I my comment sounded snarky. I get that way (more than usual) on Sundays. I just got done with the three-hour tour myself, and I know exactly what you’re talking about. My first instinct is to try to offer a solution to the problem, but of course there isn’t one, and that makes me even snarkier. Quote:… what you could do about depression: pray more, read scriptures more, go to the bishop, live the word of wisdom … there was a perfunctory comment that maybe if these don’t work, you may consider counseling, psychotherapy, and potentially hospitalization.
Ugh. Yes, that’s very disappointing. You might have suggested a vacation from church. Might be just what is called for in some circumstances.
And by the way, I had to sit through the “14 fundamentals” again two weeks ago. That is, I got through part of it and then had to leave. I think I’m still smarting from that.
Those thoughts on depression are just wrong – and depressing. Fwiw, we had a good discussion in our Sunday School class. I live in a great ward.
wayfarer, I like the quote you gave: Quote:…she listed what you could do about depression: pray more, read scriptures more, go to the bishop, live the word of wisdom… there was a perfunctory comment that maybe if these don’t work, you may consider counseling, psychotherapy, and potentially hospitalization. I found it extremely disappointing coming from PhD psychologist. AND, SHE was the one who suggested reading “RSR” in relief society book group this month. go figure.
I give you credit for being patient & not jumping out of your chair. She should submit a paper with this course of treatment for depression. I wonder what her colleges would say. My oppologies in advance to anyone in this forum who is mental health care worker. My brief & limited experience have been that they are very very good or terrible.
I feel sorry for her patients.
Mike from Milton.
Wayfarer, I don’t think I would have stayed in the psychologists presentation. It didn’t sound inspiring at all. While I allow others to think of things literally if that works for them, it does create a problem for me when the class time is focused on speculation of seemingly unimportant stuff like that, unless they bring it back to some lesson value of some kind which allows my metaphorical approach to become enlarged with deeper meaning by extending the metaphor to more detail. I have equal impatience for all the time wasted on repeated announcements. But I keep trying to stay patient (and read my book to occupy my mind).
Interesting that “literal” and “literature” are from the same latin root…. I read a comment someplace that said “When I no longer believed it literally I no longer believed” I suspect it is a small percentage of the church that can take the history and doctrine on anything other than a literal basis. Its value would be so diminished as to not be worth the effort for many people. I think the church has to push literalism to keep the members enthused. I don’t think so, Cadence. They certainly have to craft it and go carefully because they have pushed it for decades, but statements like Pres Hinckley’s in the Wallace interview “I’m not sure we teach that doctrine” and Uchtdotf’s “slowly traditions become expectations and divine principles get lost in good ideas” can be used to slowly teach the members Christ always spoke in parables, and they have deeper meaning because of it…it seems to me these approaches to back off of literalism is the best long term strategy for the church. I think other religions have gone through these phases, like Judiasm, and they seem to create groups of orthodox interpretations and non-literal interpretations. I’m not sure it has to be one way for our church to keep members.
I have experienced those “literal” lessons and discussions also. I sat through one last week. I guess I have come to expect it and the discussions no longer bother me (too much). I was a little surprised this week that I can’t recall one “literal” comment from the lesson. Nobody spoke the word “steel” except when read directly out of the verse. The discussion was all beautifully around how to apply the message of the story to our own lives. There was even a comment on how as Mormons we need to learn not to have unrealistic expectations of ourselves. I felt edified.
Thanks for the topic!
Orson wrote:I have experienced those “literal” lessons and discussions also. I sat through one last week. I guess I have come to expect it and the discussions no longer bother me (too much).
I was a little surprised this week that I can’t recall one “literal” comment from the lesson. Nobody spoke the word “steel” except when read directly out of the verse. The discussion was all beautifully around how to apply the message of the story to our own lives. There was even a comment on how as Mormons we need to learn not to have unrealistic expectations of ourselves. I felt edified.
Thanks for the topic!
that is great…when it works, and people move to the spiritual content, it works wonderfully well.my attitude might have been affected by coming down with some illness yesterday…
Gallup statistics are interesting, though hard to tell exactly how Mormonism would rate on these scales. But in the U.S.: * Since 1977, those who believe the Bible to be the literal word of God has decreased slightly, but has been fairly steady, dropping from 38% in 1977 to 30% in 2011.
Quote:A majority, 54%, of those who attend religious services on a weekly basis believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, more than twice the percentage of those who attend church less often.
Quote:Forty-six percent of Americans with a high school education or less take the Bible literally, compared with no more than 22% of Americans with at least some college education.
Quote:Protestants (including those who identify themselves as “Christian” but not Catholic or Mormon) are the most likely religious group to believe the Bible is literally true. Forty-one percent of Protestants hold this view, while a slightly larger 46% take the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Heber13 wrote:There are likely more people in our congregations that believe the scriptures are inspired but not literal than we may tend to think.
I am sure of it. But as we all know, social pressure prevents anyone from actually admitting it in a church setting.
Heber13 wrote:I don’t think so, Cadence. They certainly have to craft it and go carefully because they have pushed it for decades, but statements like Pres Hinckley’s in the Wallace interview “I’m not sure we teach that doctrine” and Uchtdotf’s “slowly traditions become expectations and divine principles get lost in good ideas” can be used to slowly teach the members Christ always spoke in parables, and they have deeper meaning because of it…it seems to me these approaches to back off of literalism is the best long term strategy for the church.
I think other religions have gone through these phases, like Judiasm, and they seem to create groups of orthodox interpretations and non-literal interpretations. I’m not sure it has to be one way for our church to keep members.
Maybe if you move slow enough you can make it work. I was thinking more in terms of some big announcement that the BofM was just inspired fiction. How would that go over?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
