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Since the New Year we have been attending the other ward that meets in the afternoon. We have multiple reasons for this: 1) Another little girl was bullying our daughter in a girl like – “nobody wants to sit by you” way. 2) The other ward just has more young families doing more stuff – the ward in general just seems to be better run and more active. 3) I sometimes have to work Sunday mornings so it works better to attend in the afternoon to get the family to church together. 4) The classes are better with more diversity. Yesterday we agreed to meet with our official ward bishop. He started by asking us if we were going to another church. I can see how he might have this impression. I take the kids to Awanas at the Baptist church on Tuesday night and Kid’s town club at the Assembly of God church on Sunday nights and my wife goes to a Mothers of Preschoolers group at the Adventist church. Yes, we have become an eclectic family. But we assured him that although we may visit other church services with friends from time to time, we are not attending the afternoon ward in order to attend other churches in the morning. We stressed that this decision was because of work. Also that our current housing situation was temporary and we plan to find something more permanent in the spring so we are somewhat in flux right now.
He said he would need to talk to the bishop of the other ward and the SP, but that the SP’s standard answer is no. He let us know that several auxiliaries have asked to give my wife a new/additional calling that would require her to be present on Sunday and that is part of why he was requesting the meeting.
Overall the meeting went well. He didn’t delve into “apostasy” or interrogate us over TR questions (DW and I do not currently hold TR’s and the Bishop may have been restrained in his bluntness by my 2 children [6 & 4] bouncing off the walls of his office). His main concern seemed administrative, how to staff the ward, how to give and keep us involved in callings when attending the other ward. I told him that we did not want our participation in other churches to hinder us in the LDS faith and that we would be careful not to cross any boundaries once identified. He told us that from his way of thinking we should be too busy in our LDS pursuits to have time for these other activities.
He told us to continue as we are doing for now and he will get more direction from the SP together with the other ward bishop. He told us that the ultimate decision may be to attend where we are zoned and if that is the case then DW will just need to rely on others for help during the meetings that I cannot attend due to work. We will see how this shakes out. It is good to have a dialogue going, which might help when it comes to broaching the subject of performing DD’s baptism in a few years. We’ll see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing Roy. My guess is that there are multiple factors (there is usually not a simple one reason factor for behavior)…and so the bishop probably is thinking of these things:
1- Callings and staffing needs (admin stuff) needs to be addressed, and he wonders if your family can help the ward’s needs
2- His stewardship to try to run things in his unit properly, and the SP wants people to follow the rules and attend where they are supposed to…it is more orderly and easier to have the program run the way the CHI states it should be run.
3- Concern about you family…if you’re not following the program, he may sincerely care what needs you may have and how he can help meet those needs.
4- Socially the ward can try to provide good relationships with your family with friends and associations in groups and auxiliaries, but only if they are aware of your needs and only if you are in them to allow social interaction.
Most bishops are loving and caring and know the church is there to help you…so #3 (deep concern and love for you) is usually in there somewhere, just in varying degrees of the other factors, depending on the bishop and the culture of the ward.
However, the other points are often the motivating factors to act and do something like call you in to discuss things, or invite you to change something about what you’re doing or how you can serve in the ward. The fact is, they need the people in the community to make things work, so they are going to approach things from the needs of the church, even if they thoughtfully consider your needs too.
It usually comes down to what we’ve discussed many times on this board, that is…you need boundaries of what they can ask of you and your family, and you can weigh how much you are willing and able to sacrifice for the ward you are assigned to. Ultimately, you can’t be guilted or bullied into do anything you don’t want to do…but knowing you, I can’t imagine you’d let yourself be coerced beyond what you wish to.
One thing for sure that you can take away from the interview…he cares enough to call you in and talk. If he didn’t care about your family, he’d leave you alone. He should be commended for that, right?
Thanks, Roy, for letting us know. My only addition to what Heber said (not a new point, just a slight addition) is that he wants “the ideal” – and I can’t blame him for that. Your SP surely wants the ideal – and I can’t blame him for that.
Maybe the institutional ideal will be good enough to sacrifice some of the family’s practical ideal – but maybe it won’t. Maybe the family’s practical ideal is really important right now and can’t be compromised. Maybe you will be able to attend your own ward when not working and the other ward when work conflicts. Maybe you’ll have to stand your ground and tell your Bishop that you really need to attend as often as possible, that you want to do so with your family (
reminding him that Pres. Packer said in the CHI training that the members are not meant to staff the Church but that the Church is meant to strengthen and help the family) and that, for now, that means you feel you have to continue to attend the other ward – even if that means you and your wife can’t have any official callings. (You might volunteer to help with the things previously done by Activities Committee members – just so he knows you sincerely want to stay involved in your own ward to whatever degree possible.) If push comes to shove, I really would quote Pres. Packer – and mention how wonderful it was to hear the Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles say that so clearly. How can anyone argue with that? (Rhetorical question, everyone.
:silent: )I’m just blunt like this, but I would just politely say that we have decided to attend the other ward. If because of administrative stuff we cannot have callings in that ward, we will at least attend as a family. Just let them know that is the decision you have made and stick with it. They can hem and haw and blow smoke, but in the end there is really nothing they can do. If you are more comfortable/happy in the other ward then don’t think twice. Hey, Roy, It’s an interesting quandary and I appreciate your sharing it. I’ve thought about attending a different ward off and on for a dozen years, so it’s nice to hear your thoughts on the subject. I just want to play devil’s advocate (no pun intended) for a minute, just to provide an alternative way to look at it. I don’t mean that this is the BEST way to look at it, just a DIFFERENT way to look at it. The LDS Church operates on completely volunteer basis, as you know. The Bishop isn’t paid for all the very real sacrifice he makes, and neither is anyone else in the ward. Yet the Church is a very busy operation. I used to know a guy that was a youth minister at a Christian church. It was his full time job. With his salary, he paid his mortgage, bought his groceries, went to movies… all the things that we all do. On Sundays he didn’t have any responsibilities, so that was his day for bike riding. I bring this up, just to contrast how there is just as much activity (more?) in the LDS Church, but it’s run by a complex and well-staffed group of volunteers.
But there is a critical aspect to how this works in the LDS Church. Although everyone works on a “volunteer” basis, in reality, it’s not “volunteer” at all. The church organization is and has always been predicated on assignment. “You are assigned to labor in the Ohio Toledo Mission” Your callings are by assignment. You can decline or accept, but you don’t choose you callings. (You can volunteer, but if you do so, you are really just making the offer, and ultimately, the bishop will decide whether or not to assign you). You are in the ward you are in by assignment, based on where you live. The Church draws ward boundaries specifically to balance ward membership as much as possible, rich-poor, stable-transient, old-young. Assignment and commitment to that assignment are the grease that makes the machinery work.
So, now here’s the thing about attending another ward. Attendance in the LDS church is much more than showing up, sitting through a meeting, and then leaving. In fact, I think it’s that “Ward Family” environment that has caused many to want to “stay LDS” even after a crisis of faith. You have home teachers. You wife has visiting teachers. Your kids (when they are older) will have YM/YW leaders, both adults and peers. There are parties. Activities, Signing up to have the missionaries over for dinner. Shoveling the sidewalks as a ward.
So, now you have to ask yourself. Does “attending” another ward mean that you expect to be part of that ward family? Is it your expectation that the other ward will invite your kids to participate in the swimming party Tuesday night at the 1st Counselor’s house? Primary Activity Day? Merit Badge workshop? Your answer may be, and probably is ‘no’. OK, but how do the leaders and class presidents know that that is your expectation? Down the road, will they have to ask themselves, “We have this boy that attends the Deacons Quorum on Sunday, but he’s not in our ward. Do we invite him to scout camp? If the ward helps cover the cost of scout camp for the young men, are we supposed to cover that boy’s costs?”
The bottom line, I think, is that you have to realize that pressing this point will create hassle for other people, because it is well out of the norm. Then you have to ask yourself how much disruption you are willing to cause others in the Church in your quest to be independent.
Sounds like someone’s been talking out of school. Personally I can’t see where the problem is here. You’re not inactive, you just go to another meeting. He can object to your involvement with other churches, but that is an entirely separate issue.To be honest, I’d love to go to an afternoon ward here, if we had one. I’m a bad riser.
On Own Now wrote:So, now here’s the thing about attending another ward. Attendance in the LDS church is much more than showing up, sitting through a meeting, and then leaving. In fact, I think it’s that “Ward Family” environment that has caused many to want to “stay LDS” even after a crisis of faith. You have home teachers. You wife has visiting teachers. Your kids (when they are older) will have YM/YW leaders, both adults and peers. There are parties. Activities, Signing up to have the missionaries over for dinner. Shoveling the sidewalks as a ward.
So, now you have to ask yourself. Does “attending” another ward mean that you expect to be part of that ward family? Is it your expectation that the other ward will invite your kids to participate in the swimming party Tuesday night at the 1st Counselor’s house? Primary Activity Day? Merit Badge workshop? Your answer may be, and probably is ‘no’. OK, but how do the leaders and class presidents know that that is your expectation? Down the road, will they have to ask themselves, “We have this boy that attends the Deacons Quorum on Sunday, but he’s not in our ward. Do we invite him to scout camp? If the ward helps cover the cost of scout camp for the young men, are we supposed to cover that boy’s costs?”
It seems like our official ward is dying. Bishop even said that he would like nothing better than build a big apartment complex right in the middle of our ward’s boundaries. OTOH the other ward has a glut of young families. To answer your question, our official ward doesn’t do much by way of activities and the other ward has “quasi-official” meet at the park days, walking groups, book clubs etc. One of our frustrations before our decision to change wards was that even with these “casual get togethers,” people from the other wards were not invited. There wasn’t any prohibition against people from other wards participating per se, it was just a function of our “ward family” mentality and culture that we stick to our own.
In thinking about what I want to have happen, I would either like the bishops and SP to tacitly allow us “just visiting” rights or for them to take so long in making a decision that we find a more permanent living arrangement in our desired ward boundaries and the problem just works itself out. I am hoping for the same lack of inertia that so frustrated SD when he was near desperate for a release from his calling to come to my aid now. If directed to begin attending our official ward again, then we have some more issues: Will the ward feel that we rejected them and therefore be even more standoffish than before? Will I need to be absent from a certain percentage of meetings so that people do not believe that the reason for wanting to change in the first place was in fact work? I hope it won’t come to that.
I appreciate everyone’s comments. I feel like we are breaching the unwritten order of things on several levels and that does raise some eyebrows. I see it as only natural that persons that believe our eternal wellbeing (and that of our children) is on the line will want to nudge us back into the program (lovingly or otherwise), so I hold no animosity towards them (perhaps a little resentment but not animosity). I do think it is a little ironic that it would be easier for the ward if we just went inactive – they already have programs set up to deal with inactives and there wouldn’t be any jurisdictional issues.
:crazy: Roy, I have to say I totally disagree with your bishop regarding being too busy to be involved in activities with people of other faiths. This is a big part of the reason there have been so many misperceptions about LDS people. Our family mixes it up with people of other faiths and no faiths regularly. It “grows” us and helps them to understand our faith better. While I totally understand On My Own’s point about a ward needing people to carry out the callings, I really believe there needs to be a balance in our lives. I also believe you need to work out worshipping together as a family. If you attend the later ward after your family attends the morning ward, your kids basically won’t see you on those Sundays. Family first. Callings come and go. I would do what is best for our family in this situation.
If you attend another ward without permission, they might choose to withhold callings and temple recommends. That does take place at times. But I’ve known those who have stood their ground and been allowed the callings/temple recommends. It does complicate VT/HT as far as distances. But you can certainly be very involved with a ward that is a little further than the ward you are zoned for. It is workable and done all the time.
My initial reaction, and pardon the bluntness: 1) Does this sound like something that Jesus would do? If the Bishop is supposed to be carrying out the Lord’s work, would the Lord’s work be discouraging you from associating with those of other faiths? Would he ask you not to come at all if you can’t come at the assigned time?
2) Your bishop sounds like an arrogant jerk.
I don’t have a solution other than to just tell him you are doing the best you can and what you feel is right for your family. And since you are moving in a short time anyway, that you needn’t be any more of his concern. Or, Honestly, I’d probably just avoid the bishop like the plague and keep doing what your are doing.
On Own Now wrote:Attendance in the LDS church is much more than showing up, sitting through a meeting, and then leaving. In fact, I think it’s that “Ward Family” environment that has caused many to want to “stay LDS” even after a crisis of faith. You have home teachers. You wife has visiting teachers. Your kids (when they are older) will have YM/YW leaders, both adults and peers. There are parties. Activities, Signing up to have the missionaries over for dinner. Shoveling the sidewalks as a ward.
I think On Own Now has really brought up a big important element in this discussion. It is more than just attending.Mormonism isn’t a church; it’s a people (a “family”). That is both the glory and the horror of the LDS Church, depending on the degree of dysfunctionality within the family in which one lives.
On Own Now wrote:…If the ward helps cover the cost of scout camp for the young men, are we supposed to cover that boy’s costs?
Budget allotments from Church HQ are calculated strictly from attendance and not by the number of families assgned to the ward. Anything to do with cost and budget is a false argument. As far as extra cost for scouts would be burdensome on the troop, it’s a non-issue.
Quote:He told us to continue as we are doing for now and he will get more direction from the SP together with the other ward bishop. He told us that the ultimate decision may be to attend where we are zoned and if that is the case then DW will just need to rely on others for help during the meetings that I cannot attend due to work.
I find this discussion fascinating…fascinating in that this issue is completely different in my part of the world (the Mormon Belt). No one around here gets “permission” from their Stake President to attend a different ward. They just go. In fact, I remember a number of years ago finding a new young couple in our ward that was just “visiting.” I found out later that they were “ward shopping.” (Our ward did not meet their criteria, I guess, because I never saw them again.) In fact, we call traveling from ward to ward “ward-hopping.” (It’s a common enough phenomenon that we have special WORDS for it.) One family in my present ward lives just outside the ward boundaries but attends our ward. The stake realigned our ward boundaries a few years back and an elderly couple who had been attending the same ward almost their entire married life ended up in a different ward. The husband was visited by his new bishop and stake president but flatly refused to attend the new ward. He didn’t bother to get “permission.” We have a brother in our ward boundaries who is the BISHOP of his selected ward (which is not our ward). Another family drives twenty miles to Church each day to attend the ward they like (in an area where one town of 2000 can have four LDS wards you can see the significance of this).
My own view on the topic…it bugs me. If the Church is a church of order then we should attend where we live. (I think On Our Own brought up some good points). My wife and I have always followed that policy. (The hypocrisy of our stake pressuring this little old couple to attend a different ward while calling a man OUTSIDE his ward boundaries to be bishop also bugs me…but that’s a separate issue.) HOWEVER, not all wards are created equal and if the choice is between attending a different ward and not going at all then, if I were the bishop or stake president in question, I would say go to the other ward with my blessing. So I guess I’ve softened by personal stance on this over the years. I think there is plenty of precedent churchwide for attending a different ward. As others have said, do what works best for you and your family.
Gerald, I saw a situation where ward boundaries changed and an elderly couple changed wards and it was very damaging as one of them suffered from some emotional/mental illnesses. It completely destabilized this person to make those changes and have to deal with a whole new group of people who didn’t feel like friends or “family”. We just never know where someone is coming from and I think we should be careful to try not to judge since we don’t know. The Church is enough of a church of order that it should be able to survive and carry on in spite of some exceptions. In addition, in our area, it is not uncommon at all for people moving to the area to visit wards before they buy their house. Sometimes our wards can make or break us. Old-Timer wrote:Mormonism isn’t a church; it’s a people (a “family”).
Well, technically, it’s a corporation. But that’s another story.
Roy wrote:If directed to begin attending our official ward again, then we have some more issues…
As someone who doesn’t take direction very well, I may not be the best person to offer suggestions. But if it were me, I think I’d simply decide what was best for my family, prayerfully, and with the input of all those directly affected, and then do that thing. Do what is right, let the consequence follow.
Priesthood leaders are beholden to “enforce” the rules as best they can, whether they agree with them (or have given serious thought to them) or not. The stake/ward geographical organization appears to be meant to discourage congregation shopping (and is unique in this regard, as far as I am aware) and what you are suggesting will sound like ward-shopping to a lot of people. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that, but I can see how most bishops/SPs would be resistant — it’s too far outside the box, could lead to chaos and anarchy, and isn’t according to divine plan.
Quote:I do think it is a little ironic that it would be easier for the ward if we just went inactive – they already have programs set up to deal with inactives and there wouldn’t be any jurisdictional issues.
Ironic indeed.
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