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I think the Holy Spirit is a woman, to open a whole can of worms. And I take it one step further to an idea found in some jewish mystic beliefs about a 4 some instead of a trinity. I also look at the Hindu religion (not all false by the way, wasn’t it Jospeh Smith that said we must seek out truther WHEREVER it was to be found, well other religions should be up to being studied for truth) anyway. I consider it possible there could very well be 6 beings and not 3, because of the Hindu religion having 3 incranate Gods, and 3 incranate Goddesses. It takes time though to space through this. For a while I throughly believed it was 6 beings instead of 4, but I have changed my mind, and now believe that the best possible conclusion is that there are 4 beings due to the fact that 1) all gods are married, and that men and women cannot do anything alone except be messengers of the Gods. Is the Holy Spirit then only a messenger of God? Or is She a God? I would say she is a God, and I would say, denying of the holy spirit, is punished so severely by the laws of Heaven as to not obtaining any degree of Glory, because you would then be denying the very existence that you came from. When you deny women, you basically deny the womb, you deny that you ever had an origin through women, and that they play any significant part in your life. Ooh, maybe this is why they are called Son’s of Perdition, because it will mostly be sons, and not daughters who will deny the Holy Spirit, and therefore it seems to me that only male children are ever capable of denying the woman that gave brith to them, because they themselves do not understand what it is like to give birth, or see how the world is truly whole as women can see. Of course these are my wild assumptions, but I feel the Holy Spirit strongly. I can not duplicate this feeling no matter how I try. I have gone completely back and forth with confusion, but a few things today, and I hope I internalize them, have prompted me to see that its not a lost cause of finding the truth. I can have the mysteries of the kin-dom, and understand of my power and my Heavenly Mother’s power. Women can have this, we must seek it. Of course in the Church, it can never come to pass that women will be discussed as being equal in power, authority, presiding both here on earth and in heaven, it can never come to pass until the men of this church disucss and pray about it. It is important to our knowledge of eternal life. I would even go as far to say to be fully saved, which involved eternal life (think about it for just a moment, are we ever truly saved until we return back to the celestial kin-dom?) we must seek out knowledge of our Mother, only then can we ever truly understand the atonement, and its power, only then can we understand how God works, being both male and female. Only then can we understand. In my most depressed moods I have wanted to give up, but something is pushing me to continue this, even when I think I make no sense.
I am trying to have hope. I have come back to this forum, and hopefully will be here to stay for a while. I just ask one thing, that if I get emotional, you don’t tell me to take a break. I can’t. It knaws at the back of my head. I want understanding, maybe prayers, and letting me rant and rage, if I get really emotional and angry, becuase I know I will. I accept the emotions for what they are. Maybe that is what fully makes us able to have compassion because we feel everything. So that is all I ask, and please respond to my very disconnected rant.
In the very least. Do you understand any of this?
Good rant. Sometimes that feels good to get it out, huh? I’ve also heard others theorize the Holy Spirit could be a woman, since many of the descriptions we use (Comforter, peace, long-suffering, etc etc) are sometimes associated with maternal characteristics.
Of course, the Holy Ghost is taught from the Church to be a male personage of Spirit. So that is something we’d have to work through…is the Church just flat out wrong on this one?
But I have no problem with you sharing your ideas and what feels good to you. I’m glad you’re here and we can share ideas.
[time for me to put on the moderator hat]Only thing I ask…please don’t tell us we can’t tell you to take a break. Sometimes breaks are a good way to get away and get emotionally balanced on ideas, all of us need that at times, and so that may be a legitimate response from someone. If you don’t want to take a break, that is fine, but in this open forum we can’t tell others what they can or can’t say in response to our posts unless they are breaking the forum rules.
So post what is on your mind that fits within the rules of etiquette, and let others post responses. Agree with them or not, stay or take a break, but be open to hearing what others say to your posts and we’ll be open to what you have to say.
Sound good?
I understand. Keep in coming.
Mike from Milton.
OK. I won’t tell you to take a break. Is it OK, though, to ask you to take a deep breath and walk away for a minute or two if things get too stressful for you? 
🙂 I have heard a lot of people speculate about Heavenly Mother and the Holy Ghost, and, especially since we have so little (next to nothing, really) in clear scriptural statements about Heavenly Mother, I have no problem with people trying to make sense of it all in varying ways. Having, said that, I agree with Heber that equating them has implications in Mormonism that aren’t easy – not so much about the HG as male as about the Holy Ghost as something other than a personage of spirit (since Heavenly Mother pretty much has to be a perfected Being in the same way as Heavenly Father). On a purely theoretical level, I REALLY like the vision of the Godhead as Father, Mother and Child – but I recognize that’s not going to be acceptable as common doctrine any time soon.
So, since it really is almost completely speculation at this point, I say:
“Speculate away and try to figure out how it can make sense to you. Just don’t try to convert others to that view. That probably won’t go well.”
First: Well I guess I can handle being told to take a small time to take deep breaths. That’s okay. I know I need too. Secondly: As for the Church’s teaching on the Holy Spirit being a male, it stems from the scripture in Nephi about him saying he spoke with the Spirit of the Lord. Some apostles strongly feel that was the Holy Spirit, while others feel that was the Lord himself. I have heard both teachings on this scriptures. I feel that it was the Lord himself. I think there is another scriptures they use to back up the teaching of the Holy Spirit being male, but I can’t remember what, but that scripture too is probably a bit vague, if you ask me. I think most of it stems from the idea of the Patriarchal order, that those in charge are males, and the females are mates and companions and counselors. (they would probably say “Very important, special counterparts, who’s job it is to teach the children, and that is ultimately the most important thing you can do” to which I very well would reply, if its so important why don’t you stay at home and teach the children too?) I roll my eyes at the logic, considering some logical scholarly evidence to the contrary. Linquistic scholarly evidence in the church, seems to be taken as wrong, if it doesn’t jive with what the prophets teach, but the prophets being completely human, can be wrong. Of course the scholars can be wrong too, but I would take something in study, that has been studied very carefully as probably being a bit more truthful then something just thought about and prayed over. Without thorough scholarly study, how can we tell if the answer we get in prayer, is genuinely true, when there is some evidence that maybe some of our answers are based upon our own preceptions.
Another thought: Because all Gods must be married (if you take Doctrine and Covenants marriage requirement literally), the Savior is Married to the Holy Spirit (as another theory of who the Saviors Bride is), and as we believe God the Father and Mother are married, that is why I am leaning more so toward it being a foursome as well. So therefore the Holy Spirit is our Savioress. She isn’t resurrected so that she can go through and testify of our savior, and so doing is being our savioress. Now, caution in this next part must be used. The Holy Spirit in some respects seems to just be the lesser of the Godhead, that she is sent, not coming in her own right. That she just does the bidding of the Savior, and the Father. That she is nothing except what the Father and Savior wants her to be. I doubt this. I doubt this logic. If I can think it though, others can. I think people underestimate the Holy Spirit and her mission, just as they underestimate women and their mission, and just make it to be one thing, while it really is many things. How could anybody be saved, if it wasn’t for the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit? And then nobody could also be saved if it wasn’t for the atonement, so really both work together. Both have too. And not one is greater then the other. We always talk about the comforting power of the holy spirit, but what of the Sanctifying power? I think that sanctifying power is probably one more reason that the Priesthood leaders think its a male. *gasp* a woman can’t have sanctifying power (yet we do, in the Temple, during the initiatories, makes no sense why we can’t have more sanctifying powers then just that).
I think all in all it probably just really urks their idea of their place in the world. I mean think about it, if the Holy Spirit was a female, males are probably less apt to listen to her, want to follow her. Except the Book of Proverbs personifies wisdom as a woman. That men must follow a woman’s advice, in order to do anything, to lead, to even have wisdom of their own. Does that mean that women are just again, something men need to possess? I doubt that is what the book of proverbs is saying. I think what it is saying, is that Women are men’s leader. And that men in return also help women. It isn’t unreasonable to think that, or get that from careful study of scripture.
We have constantly been taught that men and women have separate but equal roles (anyone with thinking power can see how false this dichotomy is, because proportionally more power is given to the man then women in this separate but equal role thing). This teaching alone is enough to disturb any male that buys into it, that there could possibly be a Female that leads, and presides, and has a priestesshood beyond motherhood.
Okay now I revert back to something else I wrote on why I changed my mind from it being 6 in the Godhead to 4. It is also because I struggled to see who our Savioress was. I struggled to fill that gap with 6. With a fouresome, it flows much easier into my mind who our Savioress is and what a savioress is. She is the Holy Spirit. She along with our Mother in Heaven teach us and guide us, sanctify us to become closer to our Father in Heaven and Savior. In return our Father in Heaven and Savior require that we listen to our Mother and the Holy Spirit, and follow them. The Father and Savior will lead us back to our Mother and Savioress and the Mother and Savioress will lead us back to the Father and Savior. In reality, I think that the Father is unto the Mother, and the Mother is unto the Father. That there is no he is King unto God, She is queen unto him. That is a grave misunderstanding. A very serious misunderstanding on Brigham Youngs Part. With this idea of a foursome. A lot of Gospel principles seem to flow easier into my mind.
Now I just wait for the day where I can pray: Dear Heavenly Parents, in public. Now I just wait for the day where I can see men and women fufill callings together (like bishop is a calling for Husband and Wife, and so on and so forth), and that the wording we use to describe one, we describe the other with too. Men and Women nurture, men and women preside, men and women protect. There is no difference in what. Only difference to me is in how.
*sigh*. Look all I want to do is talk. I do not know of anyone here in the Rexburg area that I can talk to about this. I live in the Mormon Cultural bubble right now, and feel very disconnected. I began this journey here in Rexburg even though I carried it with me back to my homeward in California. I would love a support group in person. I think I need that. I just don’t know who to find that shares my opinions. Please private message me on this one request. I would prefer to also meet your spouse, and that you meet my husband. It is safer that way.
I keep staring at this page, I wrote a lot. Am I forgetting anything else? Just that, If I can’t meet a person in person, maybe we can start a board topic section (whatever its called), that is something along the lines of a virtual candelight visual. Where we could write our prayers, poems, personal stories about things. Personally I would like this topic to be somewhere along the lines of the mother fast that I read about in one of the blogs, daughters of Eve, or something like that. In it she asks people to join her for a fast every 3rd sunday of every month for revelation to come for Heavenly Mother to be revealed to us, for our hearts to soften. Pretty much for anything like that. I haven’t done it in a while. I would love to do it in a group in person, but if not, then online would be fine. It could be a permanent board index topic section as I said. If the administrators are okay with it, then I ask that we do this. Praying is much stronger in groups, at least that is what we learn in the Temple right?
And, not trying to convert others to my views. But I sure wish they wouldn’t be so harsh on people who disagree with their views. One man involved in the September 6 was excommunicated for believing the Holy Spirit was female, and he wasn’t even trying to stray from it being a threesome either. So that is why I say it here, in the comfort of this blog. Rather then out there at church to any one who would take great offense.
Hope you like reading long essays. I think I could make a book out of all the posts I write here. They are always so long.
Old-Timer wrote:“Speculate away and try to figure out how it can make sense to you. Just don’t try to convert others to that view. That probably won’t go well.”
as wise of advice as any…Can anyone point to a reference that gives the Holy Ghost a gender? Marion G Romney said in Conference, May 1974: Quote:Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as a
maleperson. Speaking to his disciples, he said: “… It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send
himunto you.” (John 16:7. Italics added.) And further,
“… when
he, the Spirit of truth, is come, hewill guide you into all truth: for heshall not speak of himself; but whatsoever heshall hear, that shall hespeak: and hewill shew you things to come. “
Heshall glorify me: for heshall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” (John 16:13–14. Italics added.) “That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting
Himself in the form and figure of man,” wrote Dr. James E. Talmage, “is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man. ‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.) but, since I’m quite certain “he” wasn’t naked at the time, I’m not sure how such appearances would prove male- or female-ness. 😆 I really don’t care about trying to find an answer to that question, to be totally honest. I really am fine with people speculating for themselves, since I really do think that particular topic is all speculation, anyway.
Thanks for the references. I couldn’t recall the Holy ghost ever being spoken of as a “him”. Normally just as a Spirit or Comforter or other names. It is entirely possible that the translators of the Bible just substituted a male pronoun in place of a generic one. It was pretty common to refer to a unknown as a he even until a couple decades ago.
I have always wondered why there isn’t a strong female role model? why is having women empowered such a bad thing? we women get saddled with a ton of things we have done to cause the ruin of a righteous man. In the recent past it was always the womans fault if her and a man broke the law of chastity, the poor priesthood holder was tricked. One of the things that irks me to no end in this church is a woman can not be a queen within her own right…she has to be made a queen by her husband…and then for eternity all she gets to do is have his children? and be nothing more than his helpmate? his second? I think there is so much we don’t know about our Heavenly Mother due to the misinformation of men, the fragile egos of men. And the way I look at it is this…and this might be hard for some to grasp…she was smart enough to get him to do the dirty work, so in my book she’s the real boss.
Personally I don’t believe the holy spirit is a woman. Of course, that is just as plausible as the holy spirit being a man.
In my world, the holy spirit is not a personage. Sorry – that just doesn’t make any sense to me.
cwald wrote:Personally I don’t believe the holy spirit is a woman.
Of course, that is just as plausible as the holy spirit being a man.
In my world, the holy spirit is not a personage. Sorry – that just doesn’t make any sense to me.
this highly unorthodox mormon believes that the holy spirit is whatever gender you need it to be. escorts in the temple match gender, and the operation of priesthood is to work through authorized servants. why cannot the HG be structured the same way? in effect, the HG is my personal, constant companion/escort through life. since everything else in the church is hierarchal, then why not the HG as well?wayfarer wrote:cwald wrote:Personally I don’t believe the holy spirit is a woman.
Of course, that is just as plausible as the holy spirit being a man.
In my world, the holy spirit is not a personage. Sorry – that just doesn’t make any sense to me.
this highly unorthodox mormon believes that the holy spirit is whatever gender you need it to be. escorts in the temple match gender, and the operation of priesthood is to work through authorized servants. why cannot the HG be structured the same way? in effect, the HG is my personal, constant companion/escort through life. since everything else in the church is hierarchal, then why not the HG as well?Well, wouldn’t that mean you don’t believe in a literal Holy Ghost as a personage?
Well, wouldn’t that mean you don’t believe in a literal Holy Ghost as a personage?
i see no reason not to speculate that the HG is a personage. if a hierarch, the presiding HG, the one called to that position, might well be a personage, and s/he would preside over a myriad set of HG pesonages, “spirits”, who visit us in our mind and heart. why wouldnt my personal HG be grampa willy, with whom i felt especially close when i did his temple work?pure speculation here of course.
if we turn hearts to our fathers when we do geneology and temple work, what else makes sense of turning the hearts of the fathers to their children?
cwald wrote:Damn you.
most likely.
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