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In my inbox today was a Daily Gem inspirational message coming from the church. It reads: Quote:Why Do We Need Prophets?Posted: 09 Mar 2012 08:00 AM PSTFrom the days of Adam, God has spoken to His children through appointed oracles who are charged with revealing His will and counsel to others.
We often discuss on this site thinking for ourselves, getting personal revelation, and that we are ALL prophets. We have various thoughts on that subject.
Sometimes we also acknowledge the wisdom that can come from listening to prophets in the past or in our day, and although we check it against our own thinking, realize there is value to having prophets to guide us. Staying aligned to prophets’ words to the church can be a blessing to us and our families as we stay connected to our tribe, even if we reserve the right to have our own opinions on some matters.
Now, often in the church we hear the 14 fundamentals, and think that is going too far (see other thread on 14 fundamental discussion here:
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2172http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2172” class=”bbcode_url”> Indeed, in the church manuals, it teaches:
Quote:We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).
Of course, I wish it was so simple. The problem comes to me when I see in the past they have been wrong, in my opinion with 2020 hindsight, or when it is hard to know if they are speaking as a man or a prophet, or when there are changes that I think God would have told the prophet to get it right the first time. But I’m not sure that makes prophets worthless for their time, just fallible (it keeps this earth game fun and exciting to know they aren’t 100% right all the time, right?:eh: ).We don’t need to debate the 14 fundamentals again, or about obedience or challenging authority, but I am more interested in discussing how the group feels about the Daily Gem I received.
WHY DO WENEEDPROPHETS? …Or are they just nice to have?
Thoughts?
I think that integral to this discussion is the distinction be Prophet as an Oracle of God and the organization office of Prophet. I dispute the idea that the prophet, as the earthly head of the church won’t ever make a mistake. How about when the church went to 18 month missions for men, and then reversed the decision just 32 months later? I think, as a general rule, that it’s OK for the church to have a sort of authoritarian form of government. I mean, everyone here is a pretty independent thinker, but I believe the church would collapse if each ward voted for their bishop or on matters of policy, to be implemented locally. Each one of us has at least some ideas that we would change about the church if we could, but the sad reality is that if we at StayLDS collectively started our own church with all our own ideas, somehow I doubt that we would be as successful as Joseph Smith.
I believe that on matters of both doctrine and policy that the President of the Church (Prophet) and a majority of the Qof12 must be in agreement, and that should make for pretty steady hand guiding Church affairs.
But unless and until the Prophet says, “Thus saith the Lord…” which I don’t expect any time soon, then they are just acting as agents, not Oracles… and agents can make mistakes.
Now, do we need prophets? I’m not sure anymore. I do think they are useful when society loses its conscience on basic matters of morality, as in the time of Noah, Lehi, etcetera, and there is a need to get back to basics. But I find much of the modern day advice tends to be focused primarily on matters that benefit the Church. There is lots of good morality and family stuff thrown in there, but my recently cynical nature sees that stuff as necessary for gaining the hearts of the righteous. I wouldn’t have joined without all the morality and family concepts we hear from prophets. because we need prophecy The ideal, however, is stated in our scriptures as all having the spirit of prophecy. So, maybe it’s because we aren’t prophetic enough at the individual and local level. I know I’m not as prophetic as I’d like to be – and I mean that much more broadly than most people would read it.
I think it is important to juxtapose our legacy of prophets with that of the legacy of pope in the Catholic church and how Protestantism attacked that ideology and resulted into its fragmentation of everyone a self-proclaim bible thumper. I heard Huston Smith a religious scholar say that the problem with evangelical Christianity is that it worships the Bible, and that the people are guilty of “bibliolatry.” I have heard a philosopher state in a religious studies course that surveyed the history of Christianity from the Jesus movement of the early 1st century throughout the modern day that the Protestant Reformation made every person a “pope.” I guess the same could be said about Joseph Smith that the restoration gives every man or woman the opportunity to become a prophet (note the lowercase p).
I have found myself disappointed at times however that much of the advice our prophets give us has already been revealed and isn’t too different from mainstream Christianity. Sometimes I find myself guilty of thinking of the Apostles and Prophets as administrators of a rather large organization where many others do much of the grunt work, while they are the “think tank” that helps create the agenda. Nevertheless, I am grateful for SWKs 1978 revelation on the change of priesthood policy. I am grateful for ETBs emphasis on the Book of Mormon, his pride talk, and his emphasis on the freedom of America that needs to be maintained. I am grateful for Howard W. Hunter’s short humble service of a prophet that placed much emphasis on the Savior, forgiveness, and having a Current Temple Recommend. I am grateful for President Hinckley’s talk in 1999 about warning us of the years of plenty and the lean years. I see a prophetic viewpoint here. I am grateful for President Monson and his acts of Charity and Kindness which trump the gift of prophecy. The Apostle Paul taught that Charity is the greatest of all, and I believe Pres. Monson epitomizes charity as a prophet.
Ray — perhaps you can expand on the idea that we need prophecy because we need prophecy, which is what I think I heard you say. We had a lesson in Priesthood on this exact topic. I really wanted to bring up the fact that the RLDS church just canonized section 164, and they seem to have more revelation than we do, but I successfully resisted the urge. Mike at Wheat and Tares had an interesting post about Opening the Canon–I do wish it was more open. See http://www.wheatandtares.org/2012/03/02/if-i-were-in-charge-reopen-the-lds-canon/ mormonheretic wrote:We had a lesson in Priesthood on this exact topic. I really wanted to bring up the fact that the RLDS church just canonized section 164, and they seem to have more revelation than we do, but I successfully resisted the urge. Mike at Wheat and Tares had an interesting post about Opening the Canon–I do wish it was more open. See
http://www.wheatandtares.org/2012/03/02/if-i-were-in-charge-reopen-the-lds-canon/
What I find interesting in the Community of Christ (nee RLDS) is the process whereby they first seek revelation through focus and discussion amongst the members, then declare revelation from the leadership, then seek confirmation of the revelation again through prayerful consideration and discussion amongst the members. So, in a way, both hierarchal and consensual as well — fascinating.I think we need prophets to deal with things in the here and now. Having said that, I haven’t heard recent presidents doing much in the way of prophesying, not unless we count “proclamation to the world”.
This really has me thinking. The only significant modern prophecy I can point to is the revelations undoing previous prophecy. Which kind of destroys the relevancy if you ask me. Quote:Ray — perhaps you can expand on the idea that we need prophecy because we need prophecy, which is what I think I heard you say.
What I meant to say is that WE need “prophets” because WE need “prophecy”.
Iow, I believe deeply in the need to believe in prophecy – fundamentally, at the personal, individual level. I believe deeply in the need to believe in on-going revelation – fundamentally, at the personal, individual level. I believe deeply in the need to believe in inspiration – fundamentally, at the personal, individual level.
Historically, however, that need to believe in prophecy, revelation and inspiration (or, perhaps better worded, that ability to have faith that is animated by a hope in unseen things like prophecy, revelation and inspiration) is recognized
ONLYwhen there are individuals who claim to be prophets – who “model” prophecy, revelation and inspiration and “teach” it explicitly in those terms. it is maximized when those “models” also teach clearly that such things are available to all who are open to it – as was the case with Joseph Smith. (Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe in an equality of magnitude with these things – just in the need to believe in them collectively and individually.) Thus, I believe the collective “we” needs prophets, because the collective “we” needs prophecy – and the collective “we” doesn’t seek for it on our own. Individuals do, but “we” don’t.
Quote:Why Do We Need Prophets?Posted: 12 Mar 2012 08:00 AM PDTProphets are inspired teachers and are always special witnesses of Jesus Christ.
President Uchtdorf shared this in the March 2012 Ensign:
Quote:Because Heavenly Father loves His children, He has not left them to walk through this mortal life without direction and guidance. The teachings of our Heavenly Father are not the ordinary, predictable, run-of-the-mill kind you can pick up in paperback at the local bookstore. They are the wisdom of an all-powerful, all-knowing celestial Being who loves His children. Encompassed in His words is the secret of the ages—the key to happiness in this life and in the world to come.
Can we discuss this more?
What are the things the prophet in our day has told us that are not “run-of-the-mill” guidance or they are “secret of the ages”?Here would be the start of my list of recent prophet messages:
1. ABCs, A=Attitude, be positive; B=Believe in yourself; C=Courage (Pres Monson Jan 2012) –
I wouldn’t say these are “secrets”. Next.2. Love at Home (Pres Monson Ensign Aug 2011) and the Family: A Proclamation to the World –
Family is good, but the Proclamation has some things about gender and Men/Women roles that could be questioned. Hmmm?3. The Living Christ (Dec 1999) – Christ was resurrected and lives and sits on the right hand of God –
OK, I like this message, nothing else to say. Next.I don’t know where to go from here…what have prophets told us that are secrets of the ages?
– The 3 Rs of Choice?
– Gratitude
– Charity
– Preparation Brings Blessings
I’m trying to get a more clear picture on what the prophets are telling us that are so important, and if they are really driving happiness in our lives.
Perhaps I’m overlooking something or missing the point. But we tout the importance of prophets as the key to happiness, and yet, what really are prophets saying to us in our day that is different from any other religious message? Thoughts?
Frankly, and although this might sound apologetic at first (but isn’t), I think there are lots of things that could be called “secrets of the ages” that aren’t “secret” as in “unknown to anyone or never revealed”. I think there are things that could be called “secrets of the ages” that are nothing more than core, fundamental things that are disappearing from much of public discussion or consciousness. I have almost no time right now, so I can’t go into detail, but I think it’s worth considering “secrets” a bit differently.
Heber13 wrote:What are the things the prophet in our day has told us that are not “run-of-the-mill” guidance or they are “secret of the ages”?I’m trying to get a more clear picture on what the prophets are telling us that are so important, and if they are really driving happiness in our lives.
Perhaps I’m overlooking something or missing the point. But
we tout the importance of prophets as the key to happiness, and yet, what really are prophets saying to us in our day that is different from any other religious message?Thoughts? Yes yes yes.
Look, here is how I see it, and excuse my crassness, but I think we need prophets because so many of the people on this planet are too damn lazy to go to the gods ( the source) and figure things out on there own.
And I’m not just criticizing the Mormon people. I’m talking about all the prophets from all the many spiritual divine paths.
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