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I’m concerned with the contradictory message of the church, claiming to be the church of Jesus Christ and building & owning a $5,000,000,000 shopping Mall, City Creek Center in Salt Lake City. http://www.shopcitycreekcenter.com/ This is a very elegant & high-end mall, but I can’t imagine Jesus prioritizing something like this (& the many other corporations the Mormon church owns), when almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm The $5B price tag is for the whole downtown development project, not just a single shopping mall. In any case, they still paid a lot to build that mall. No. I don’t think that sends the right message either. I’m not opposed to them investing excess funds to earn interest. That is acting as a good steward of the resources. It would be equally bad if they did nothing with it at all. I think this one VERY large investment project will haunt them for a long long time. It has created endless bad PR. If they were simply an investment fund and not a church, fine. It doesn’t really matter what they invest in so long as they make a profit. A church though? There’s a much higher expectation put on them IMO. Jesus wasn’t profitable. Just sayin’… He told his disciples to abandon their work and survive by the good graces and mercy of those they preached to (traveling with neither purse nor script).
I also don’t think it is healthy for a religious institution to become financially independent from the community it is ostensibly created to serve. That disconnect is poison. When they no longer need the members to support them directly, they no longer need to be useful and provide value in return for their existence.
No. I don’t think he would. nope. No. He was too busy doing important stuff. Not making a profit. I wonder if I could serve a Senior Mission for the church being a Mall greeter?
This was meant to be funny. It’s only depressing. (For me anyway.)
Mike from Milton.
Thanks for your comments, Brian, Cwald, Wayfarer & Mike. Brian,
I agree that Jesus wasn’t into profit.
And the fact that Jesus Christ’s name is used as owner of this shopping mall, seems contradictory.
I suppose some investments would be wise, but it should be with the goal to do good, especially in helping those in fatal need, like Jesus’ parable of the good Samaritan. Of course, it isn’t simple in confronting poverty causes, but I believe if the church put as much energy into it, as they do in other endeavors, a lot could be accomplished.
Hopefully, as you implied, members will see this for what it is & respond accordingly & leaders will have to reconsider what is of Christ & what isn’t.
Mike,
Thanks for the laugh – “Mall greeter.”
🙂 No, he wouldn’t. Absolutely, unquestioningly not – but I understand why the Church would and did HELP build the complex and why they didn’t spend anywhere close to $5 billion to do it. (Sorry, but the resident parser really dislikes when incorrect and distorting numbers get repeated in discussions like this. High hundreds of millions in investment for an entire complex is enough to ask the same question, but it’s more accurate than $5 billion on a mall.) Old-Timer wrote:No, he wouldn’t. Absolutely, unquestioningly not – but I understand why the Church would and did HELP build the complex and why they didn’t spend anywhere close to $5 billion to do it. (Sorry, but the resident parser really dislikes when incorrect and distorting numbers get repeated in discussions like this. High hundreds of millions in investment for an entire complex is enough to ask the same question, but it’s more accurate than $5 billion on a mall.)
Well, how much did the church spend Ray?
You don’t know the answer. Why do you question the 5 billion figure when you have no more idea how much was spent than the next guy? If the church doesn’t like the criticism about the price tag, they can always open their books and let us TITHE PAYERS know just how much of our tithe money they spent and/or where the money came from. Is that asking to much from god’s one true church?
But, hey, no tithing funds were used in this adventure. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. cwald, every article I’ve read about the project that appears to be objective (and I’ve read probably a half-dozen since the project was announced) puts the total cost of the entire project at around $5 billion, lists a quite large number of investors and puts the Church’s investment at around $600-$800 million. (and the differences have been at varying points of the project, as initial cost estimates rose – as is the case in almost all projects like this) I’ll try to find a link to one of them and provide it. Iow, it’s a “community investment” shared by numerous entities that is attempting to keep the area around the Church Headquarters from deteriorating like many other central-city areas have done across America over the past few decades. I’m not defending the use of those funds by saying it’s a better use of the funds than any other project (including humanitarian aid). I didn’t say that in my comment. All I said is that I understand why the Church would and did help in the project. It’s not nearly as simple as many people paint it to be, imo – even though I personally have reservations about spending that much in that way and have said so in multiple places.
doug, the Church isn’t hiding its investment in any way. It’s been upfront and open about it. It hasn’t tried to cover up its investment. This is public record stuff, and the articles I’ve read have gotten the information from public record documents. This particular project has no relevance, imo, to the Wizard of Oz scene you mentioned – unless you really believe tithing funds are being used, and I don’t think there’s any solid reason to make that claim. Sure, financial transparency is an issue for many topics, but there’s no reason to think that’s the case in this project. Everyone who is aware of this stuff at all knows the corporate side of the Church isn’t hurting for cash.
Here is a link from March 1st – the last article I read about this subject: Here are some highlights:
Quote:The Salt Lake Chamber says $5 billion have gone into the revitalization of downtown Salt Lake City, and a major part of that is soon to open in the new City Creek Center.
The $5 billion total is for everything related to the entire revitalization project, of which a part is the City Creek Center.
Good old Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center The City Creek Center itself is estimated to cost up to $1.5 billion. (I’ve read anywhere from $1.2 – $1.5 billion.)
“In 2008, the Sierra Club praised the church for being “good stewards” of the environment in its City Creek Center development.” (The project is part of a LEED pilot project, which is the premier “green construction” standard in the world. Part of the cost is due to this higher construction standard. – that’s from my own experience with LEED certification)
I read both of the links. They tell nothing about how much the church invested. Here is a quote from the wiki link provided.
Quote:The LDS church confirms that no tithing money is being used for construction of the complex; the entire project is being financed through the church’s commercial real-estate arm, Property Reserve, Inc.[8][9]
So, is that correct? It states that the ENTIRE PROJECT IS BEING FINANCED THROUGH THE CHURCH’S COMMERCIAL REAL-ESTATE ARM. Guess what, that came from tithing money. The church can mince words all they want, it doesn’t change the fact that every dime they have traces back to the members donations and tithes.
Here is how I see it, if the church is not footing the 5 billion dollar bill — than who is? And if they don’t have anything to hide, than lets see documentation of just how much was spent and where the money came from. Is that really asking too much?
I have mixed feelings about this, partially I think due to the fact that I come from an area of the country where churches are extraordinarily active in helping their communities. We have local churches that collect toys for children of soldiers at Christmas, another that delivers toys to children with incarcerated parents. Numerous churches that open their doors routinely to feed the hungry and homeless. Others that sponsor summer camps for children with autism, developmental delays, deployed parents, incarcerated parents, dead parents. We have a few local churches that are constantly gathering clothes and food for the immigrant population. Others that do charity work in our local hospitals and hospice centers on a regular basis.
Most of them don’t seem worried about liability when they open their churches up for AA meetings, parenting classes, or free meals.
Don’t get me wrong, our church does some amazing things across the world and our members individually are often the epitome of service but there’s a lot we don’t do as a church community. A lot.
And then, we go to conference and hear:
Quote:A recent opinion poll indicated that far too many people still do not understand correctly that Mormon refers to members of our Church. And a majority of people are still not sure that Mormons are Christian. Even when they read of our Helping Hands work throughout the world in response to hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, and famines, they do not associate our humanitarian efforts with us as a Christian organization. ~ Elder Ballard Oct 2011 GC
and:
Quote:The Savior taught about the importance of being an example of our faith by saying, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
Our lives should be examples of goodness and virtue as we try to emulate His example to the world. Good works by each of us can do credit both to the Savior and His Church. ~ Elder Perry Oct 2011 GC
We are so quick to respond to disasters and we take on the occasional project but other churches seem to be much more willing to get their hands dirty on a daily basis.
And none of the local churches who are doing so much good in my community, to my knowledge, own a mall.
Yeah Mercy. The Mall just doesn’t feel right to me. I don’t know how much the church invested in the project – it just doesn’t feel right.
That is all.
cwald, read the Wiki entry a little more carefully. The City Creek Project is the part that includes the mall – and that entire project is what costs up to $1.5 billion of the total $5 billion for downtown renovation. The Church’s real estate company is financing that portion, in partnership with a builder – Taubman Centers, Inc. Iow, Taubman is paying the Church’s real estate company to build the project, which is why the other articles I read put the Church’s own investment around $600-$800 million (half of the total estimates). As to the reason for the investment, the stated purpose of the investment is based on the history of that area and other city center shopping centers – described at the Wiki link:
Quote:Development of the City Creek Center began in 2003, when a for-profit company owned by the LDS Church purchased the Crossroads Plaza Mall, a shopping center on the west side of Main Street from the ZCMI Center Mall. Both malls (known unofficially as the “Main Street Malls”) had been constructed in the 1970s and had begun to drop in sales figures by the late 1990s as a result of competition from rival centers in Salt Lake City’s suburbs. In 2001, the Boyer Company completed its new open-air Gateway Mall a scant four blocks to the west of Crossroads and ZCMI, drawing even more business away from Main Street. Soon after, the Nordstrom store at Crossroads announced its intentions to leave the mall and open a new store at Gateway. When the owners of the mall proved unable and unwilling to persuade the store to stay on Main Street, the LDS Church decided in 2003 to purchase the mall and redevelop the area in an effort to revitalize downtown Salt Lake City and keep the properties surrounding the church’s world headquarters at Temple Square economically vibrant.
The Church was faced with the real possibility (even probability) that if it didn’t step in that area would end up with vacant stores and classic urban economic decay. I have said already that I have reservations about the use of that much money for this exact type of project, but I also have worked in similar areas in other metropolitan areas of similar size to SLC – and I have seen firsthand what happens when replacement development of some kind doesn’t occur in the type of situation described above. It’s not good – not at all. In fact, it’s really bad.
Like I said, I understand why the Church would and did decide to do this – and I can’t argue with the reason itself.
Other related issues, including the specific nature of the project, sure– but not the reason itself, based on my experiences elsewhere.
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