where does faith start/end?

Hey, and welcome. I think you’ll find this a great and safe place to express your concerns and get the support you need.

…there seems to be alot of difficulty with working out what exactly is a “fact”

Well ain’t that the truth.

There are some incredibly damning things about this church, that I don’t want to believe. I don’t want to be associated with people that believe it.

Hmmm. This may not be the right place for you after all. 😆

You’re asking lots of questions about faith and facts. These are important questions, and ones that were foremost in my mind when I started my journey several years ago. I’m not sure how to define faith any longer, but I think it has to do with what motivates us at the deepest level, and as such, you can have faith in pretty much anything, whether it’s “true” or not. Strangely, I don’t seem to worry so much about facts any longer, at least in an absolute sense, because I have come to realize that in all but the most trivial and unimportant cases, facts are subjective. I have discovered that the only truth I can know is the truth that works for me.

I’d like clarification on one thing about being a “middle” mormon. I can understand doubhting some things about the church, but staying with the hope those things will get resolved. But I think at least some on StayLDS actively disbelieve most or at least most major things about being LDS yet stay for reasons completely removed from the gospel (e.g. community, family, etc) Do I have that right? People find reasons to stay even though they no longer feel the church has any real connection to Christ or God?

Almost right. I think there are many people (and some here) who maintain their association with the church purely out of a sense of familial responsibility, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t think there’s some connection to God.

Loon810, welcome to the group.

I completely agree with you when you say:

I’m not a scholar, nor do I have the time to pour through and catalog hundreds of pages of manuscripts to work out for myself what is “real” Not even sure that getting the full story on some things is ever going to be possible for lowly humans, and certainly not for me.

I feel the same way.

Keep it coming.

Mike from Milton.

Welcome to the forum, loon810.

My youngest son was just telling me how much he loves our family traditions for Easter egg hunts. While he really likes the candy he gets, he likes the search for them even more than having them in his hands. It really gets him excited.

I think facts are like Easter eggs.

Regarding “middle” Mormonism, I think there is as much to believe in the church as to not believe about it. It is a balance. I do not find I disbelieve it but fake it anyway. I sincerely believe those things I love about it that enrich my soul, and try to have courage to let go of things even if that means I cut against the grain sometimes. It is honest and sincere and fulfilling to me.

I’m glad you’re here. I look forward to learning from your posts.

Did Noah really build an ark and put all the animals in it? Did Moses really part the Red Sea by a command with his magic staff? Did Joseph Smith really see God and Jesus in the sacred grove? None of these are actually provable or disprovable as facts at this point. What’s more important about them is the question “WHY?” Why are these stories important?

+1, if you derive meaning from these stories in your personal life – that is faith. If the faith that you gain fills a need in your life and is not harmful to others then you have a net good. I have come to believe that for some having faith/deriving meaning comes more naturally. I believe these differences to be based on a crazy cocktail of natural inclination, life experiences, and personal choices.

And on a somewhat seperate topic. I’d like clarification on one thing about being a “middle” mormon. I can understand doubhting some things about the church, but staying with the hope those things will get resolved. But I think at least some on StayLDS actively disbelieve most or at least most major things about being LDS yet stay for reasons completely removed from the gospel (e.g. community, family, etc) Do I have that right? People find reasons to stay even though they no longer feel the church has any real connection to Christ or God?

Let me present two possible viewpoints:

1) that JS did receive the priesthood and that from that point forward how much involvement God has had with the church is unknown. Under this theory, the church really is the one true church and everyone would have to join either in this life or the next to avail themselves of the priesthood power to perform the saving ordinances. It could be that God has deligated the presiding authority over the priesthood to men and then left us to figure things out for ourselves using our own best judgement. This makes authority the ultimate issue and totally explains mistakes in our history (of course mistakes were made by fallable men even when they weild God’s authority, just like with the OT Prophets).

2) Somewhat like Ray said, that God inspires his children to build connections with Him through multiple churches/channels and that he also encourages us to organize ourselves in order to support and care for one another (then might men know that these are my disciples, if they have love on to another).

Both of these viewpoints require faith, both of them could be espoused by individuals that fully accept the LDS Church as divine without accepting that everything in the church is divine. There is no limit to the variety of beliefs that might work for an individual person. Some of these beliefs are more compatible with traditional LDS sentiment than others.

Some others may be atheistic or agnostic about God but still see value in the family & community centered teachings, ritualistic observances, following tradition, etc. that the LDS Church provides.

Those that participate here tend to see value in nurturing the connection to the LDS “tribe” regardless of other variables.

“Hi. My name is Roy. I am a husband and a father and a unique child of my Heavenly Father. I try to be helpful and honest, an asset to my community. I attempt to move forward following the dictates of my own conscience and I endeavor to extend love and forgiveness to others as they do the same. Oh yeah, and I’m a Mormon!”

Wow, the outpouring of responses is awesome. Thanks all, I look forward to a long stay

in my own experience with “faith” and having gone through a crisis of faith myself – one thing that i noted being a member of the church or belonging to a faith is that nothing is “prove-able”. we teach this and that and though we may have special spiritual experiences sometimes it’s just plain hard to go about living life like all this is true without some kind of proof.

sometimes you just have to jump off the diving board of life and jump in and do things outside the realm of “cultural expectation” and see where it takes you.

in my instance i felt “trapped” by my cultural life in the church and felt like i was having a loss of identity and i felt i had to go outside the “church expectations” to find my identity. and that I did and I am better off personally for doing it.

in the end i realized my spiritual experiences were real and authentic to me and keep me anchored in believing in the LDS church – even if, at this time, i just occasionally attend.

I don’t believe the LDS church is “true.”

I understand where you’re coming from. This statement “The church is true” is ambiguous, and so is your statement, “I don’t believe the LDS church is ‘true'”. It’s useful to clarify.

In the OED, there are 5 general meanings of the adjective ‘true’, with myriad sub-definitions. The five general meanings are:

1. Steadfast. ‘true to a friend, true to yourself, reliable, constant and secure’.

Is the chuch a steadfast companion? Does it love me unconditionally, or does it let me down? This is a subjective evaluation — and a person may express that the church is ‘true for me’, but in no way does this convey as ‘true for all’. For many, the church does let them down, and it summarily rejects those who are not ‘true’ to it by their definition.

Is the church ‘true’ in terms of being steadfast? Best case: ‘true for me’.

2. Honest, honourable, upright, virtuous, trustworthy; free from deceit, sincere, truthful.

This is the most common definition of ‘true’, with the emphasis on “Honest”, and “free from deceit”.

Is the church true by being free from deceit? No. Until it comes clean about its history, it cannot earn the label ‘true’ in this definition.

3. Consistent with fact, agreeing with reality. Representing a thing as it is.

This means to be fully accurate in representing something: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

In as far as the church does not faithfully teach its own history as it is, and tends to allow ‘milk before meat’ in hiding inconvenient truths, it does not conform with this definition of ‘true’.

Is the church ‘true’ in terms of representing its own reality and facts? NO

4. Agreeing with a standard: exactly as something should be.

In this definition, we see uses such as ‘true north’, or a ‘true wind’. Things which directionally point toward something may be referred to as ‘true’. A ‘true church’ by this definition is a church that conforms to the definition of a church. And by metaphor of ‘true north’ or ‘true wind’, a church is true if it points faithfully and truly to a good life and a divine reality.

Is the LDS church truly a church? Yes. it conforms to the standard of what people normally define as a church.

Does the LDS church truly point toward a good life and divine reality? Yes., but this is subjective.

Is the church ‘true’ in terms of being exactly as it should be? NO. As a human organization, it is fallible. It’s very important to recognize this fallibility, in spite of constant teachings of the 14 fundamentals and the like.

5. Real, genuine, not counterfeit, spurious, or imaginary. conforming or approaching the ideal character of such

The church makes a number of truth claims: regarding the origin of the book of mormon, the priesthood, and the effacacy of ordinances that must be done by the church in order to achieve salvation and exaltation.

In terms of whether the church is true by this definition, this is a tough proposition to accept. A number of the falsifiable truth claims of the church have been proven to be ‘not genuine’ and indeed counterfeit. Other claims of the efficacy of specific ordinances are not falsifiable, unprovable and unknown. In the context of what most people think as a merciful, loving god, the claims of efficacy of specific ordinances and secrets in order to achieve salvation and exaltation is generally considered to be spurious and imaginary.

Are the truth claims real, genuine, free from counterfeit and deceit? NO.

Are the promises of the church of exaltation through obedience and reception of the ordinances true? Unknowable.

I do believe that the LDS church is one pathway, one of many pathways, that an individual can follow to find the gods and peace in this life, and perhaps the next.

then you can say that by definition 4, the church is ‘true’ to that extent.

I respect those people who can use the middle way to remain actively involved in the LDS church. Good for you if you can do it. It just didn’t work out for me really.

I’m a stayLDSers because all of my family on both sides are devout members, and I want to learn and practice how to associate and be part of the Mormon community in a respectful and PEACEFUL manner for all our sakes. Also —- I take the truth from all religions and philosophies, where ever I can find it, and I think the LDS church has some good stuff to offer.

understood. I choose to remain active because there is enough of the ‘true’, and I’m ‘true’ to it, in terms of loyalty. It’s my tribe. I can understand others who may not feel the same way.