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In our discussion of the State 5 level of faith, my wife and I were talking about our own attitudes toward the Church. Although largely TBM, she has lately been claiming that now she’s doing what makes her happy, and pursuing her passions in life more freely rather than being available for ever beck and call of the church. I described to her that she is finding her own way within Mormonism — something I’m happy to be doing myself, and lately more content with the progress I’m making.
She came out with something profound at that point and said:
“you have to be IN the Church, but not OF the Church”.
For me this was a very compelling statement, which could mean different things for different people. For me, it means I am there at church, contributing, but not fully assimilating all the attitudes and destructive cultural values that do permeate our religion. For others, it may mean something different. But I felt this was a very profound philosophical comment from my wife who is usually not very philosophical.
SilentDawning wrote:“you have to be IN the Church, but not OF the Church”.
How very fun
I recall going to Seminary, Sunday School,priesthood and they would always say
Quote:“Be IN the world but not OF the world.”
Now we are being in the church but not of the church.
It’s true though.
Quote:“The code is more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules
A small clip from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6kgS_AwuH0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6kgS_AwuH0” class=”bbcode_url”> I liked my last ward a lot more than my current one. Part of it was the attitude that the Bishop had. He frequently reminded us that “The Church” is not “The Gospel”. They are two different things. Church is supposed to help us learn more about the Gospel and get closer to Jesus, but they are not one and the same. Your quote seems to be saying about the same thing. And I’d argue sometimes “The Church” becomes a time consuming distraction from actually getting closer to Christ. President Packer said much the same thing, Brown, in one of the world-wide training sessions recently. He said that the Church is meant ot serve members and families rather than members and families being meant to staff the Church. There had to be a practical reason for him to say that – a real need that he was addressing.
Perhaps ironically I would describe myself as “of the church but not in the church” Old-Timer wrote:members and families being meant to staff the Church.
You just described my ward’s administration.
Brown wrote:And I’d argue sometimes “The Church” becomes a time consuming distraction from actually getting closer to Christ.
Absolutely. But, for the most part, the active membership will not understand what you are saying, because as you mention, they mistakenly equate the church and Christ and the gospel, as all the same thing.
I think the vast majority of members realize that they are different – especially given the last GC talk, but even without it. It’s the conjoining of them all as inseparably intertwined that is the issue – kind of like trying to have a Godhead discussion with Protestants who believe in the traditional construct of the Trinity. Neither really makes sense, logically, but that doesn’t stop the mish-mash from occurring. I just read your post, and am so glad you both have freedom to live life and be in church too, but not have it encompass your entire life. However, I read your post about Stage 5 and then read this quote below your post with some other quotes: “Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it”.
Is this like applied research where qualitatively there is enough empirical research that this be true?? I am having such a hard time with learning the gospel and what our doctrine is as I am new to that part of the church. We joined 10 years ago but played the piano in Primary for a long time. Then finally got to go to Sunday School and RS. I think it’s a lot of church. Lots and lots of church. So, this is where I am at.
I loved your wife’s comment. I like you are having happy days and feeling free. I think it is wonderful not feeling “bad” because I’m not perfect. I never had a church that has made me feel so bad about who I am except this one. Have you always been members?
deancatcat wrote:
“Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it”.Is this like applied research where qualitatively there is enough empirical research that this be true?? I am having such a hard time with learning the gospel and what our doctrine is as I am new to that part of the church. We joined 10 years ago but played the piano in Primary for a long time. Then finally got to go to Sunday School and RS. I think it’s a lot of church. Lots and lots of church. So, this is where I am at.
I don’t think there is any empirical evidence for it — everyone has a different understanding of what this fifth Stage of faith is — and that is my own interpretation that has worked for me. In a way, I think it’s something that many members experience in different sectors of the gospel…for us it’s simply on a grand scale.
Quote:I loved your wife’s comment. I like you are having happy days and feeling free. I think it is wonderful not feeling “bad” because I’m not perfect. I never had a church that has made me feel so bad about who I am except this one. Have you always been members?
I know. Today the Sacrament meeting talk was from this gentleman who expounded on the “never say no to a calling” mantra we hear at Church. It was all about serving in the Church without any regard for personal circumstances — with the arguments aimed at trying to make everyone serve anywhere in the church at any time unconditionally.
I felt like Ben Franklin recorded in his autobiography when he heard a talk in a Presbyterian Church. He left the meeting believing the talk was aimed less at encouraging everyone to be good people, and more at encouraging everyone to be good Presbyterians (Mormons in this case).
One needs to have a strong filter for all the shoulds of our religion, and run it through your own life experience, current circumstances etcetera and out comes what’s right for you.
I have heard GAs talk about not letting calling and other things get in the way. I would like to read such articles but don’t know how to find them. Anyone know of a good one? Shawn wrote:I have heard GAs talk about not letting calling and other things get in the way. I would like to read such articles but don’t know how to find them. Anyone know of a good one?
Shawn, I would suggest reading Pres Uchtdorf’s talk from Oct 2010 “Of Things That Matter Most”. He doesn’t specifically state callings, but the message is very clear:
Quote:My dear brothers and sisters, we would do well to slow down a little, proceed at the optimum speed for our circumstances, focus on the significant, lift up our eyes, and truly see the things that matter most. Let us be mindful of the foundational precepts our Heavenly Father has given to His children that will establish the basis of a rich and fruitful mortal life with promises of eternal happiness. They will teach us to do “all these things … in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that [we] should run faster than [we have] strength. [But] it is expedient that [we] should be diligent, [and] thereby … win the prize.”
-Pres Uchtdorfdeancatcat wrote:I think it is wonderful not feeling “bad” because I’m not perfect. I never had a church that has made me feel so bad about who I am except this one.
Hey deancatcat, one of my favorite conference talks of all time is from Elder Haight from Oct 1981, because the message is that this Churchshould bea Church of Love, not a Church of Fear. I say “should be” because it doesn’t always seem that way, but in my experience, it is mostly because of the imperfect people, even if the Church itself is imperfect as well. But it should not make you feel worse about yourself, it should uplift you. Finding the reasons why it doesn’t sometimes is a hard thing to do sometimes, but I find reasons that attract me to the church, and other reasons that I don’t feel good about…so I work on how to not let myself feel bad about myself while clinging to the things I love about the church. You may want to read Elder Haight’s talk, the one section reads:
Quote:The Adamsons began reading
A Marvelous Work and a Wonderand found that the Church consisted of much more than just the Word of Wisdom, which he had heard so much about all his life (and because he didn’t live the Word of Wisdom, felt the Church had nothing to offer him). This couple soon learned it is a Church of love, not a Church of fear. They learned of the mission of the Savior and of our Heavenly Father and of repentance. They became so proud of the Church they had been born into that the Word of Wisdom no longer was an important issue.
-Elder Haight, “People to People”, October 1981Perhaps if you are feeling this way at church, you might find ways to reach out to others who may be feeling that way in your ward, People to People, and see if your experiences can help others.
Thanks, Heber13. I also found this from the Handbook:
Quote:…They also consider the member’s personal or family circumstances. Each calling should benefit the people who are served, the member, and the member’s family.
Although service in Church callings requires sacrifice, it should not compromise a member’s ability to fulfill family and employment responsibilities (see 17.2.1).
http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/callings-in-the-church?lang=eng I am saddened by the stories of fathers who are not around when their kids need him because he’s a bishop. If I’m ever a bishop and a member calls me for help, I’ll be like “talk to me later, I’m at my boy’s game.”
Elder Perry lists four priorities in this order:
1. Your Eternal Companion
2. Your Children
3. Providing for Your Family
4. Church Service
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6560-1-3363-4,00.html
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