Man in the Arena Introduction

Welcome, Arenaman.  

Your brother is very wise.  He could have recommended a lot of other sites, since he feels himself out of the church.  He could have broadcast to everyone in his family his disaffection.  my guess is that he knows something about you, and how important the church is culturally to you and your family.

The initial reaction you are feeling about JS and the truth claims of the church is natural.  it is for most of us a shock between total contempt for the deception, and denial-justification for the perceived good the church does. Unfortunately, our upbringing in the church puts us into an all-or-nothing mode about the church, and instead of simply accepting it for the man-made organization it is, some of us are ambivalent, vascillating between the good and bad needle that causes nothing but cognitive dissonance.

I am a believer in a middle way, one that defines positive personal belief and does not vascillate between the extremes of love-hate about the church.  

There are many great resources on this site.  I am sure Old-Timer will point you in the right direction.

I look forward to hearing your stories.

Welcome Man,

I’ve been posting hear for about a year. There were some times in the beginning that I felt the need to unload to my bishop, my home teacher, my family. This need has reduced. I no longer need them to see what I see. I say this because there can be urges to make drastic changes. Go slow. The new you will take time to develop. Take the time to get to know yourself (and how you may still fit within the Mormon community) before making any knee jerk reactions.

A few thoughts…

He was not only running a theocracy as the prophet, but he also held key positions in government, the militia, and the local economy. I found this to be contrary to the accepted American principle of the separation of Church and State.

Yeah, that’s basically the argument Oliver Cowdery tried to make at his excommunication hearing.

I also felt that it was somewhat ironic that a man who had run for president of the United States would be martyred for stifling freedom of speech in the form of dissent by destroying the Expositor.

On the other side, it wasn’t particularly uncommon for a printing press to be destroyed back then. Abolitionist papers were destroyed all the time. JS acted in his official capacity as head of the town council to declare it a public nuisance. The ironic part is that if the expositor had been destroyed at night by an angry mob in a way that could never be completely tied back to JS, things may have turned out differently.

I thought, “Wow! Now we have some evidence, some physical proof!” As I conducted more research, using Church approved or affiliated sources, I found the reason that the Church does not publicize the papyrus- the translation does not match up. In fact it’s an Egyptian scroll on the mummification ritual from the Book of Breathings.

Yeah, I see these things as catalysts for Joseph’s revelations and I see the revelations as a type of inspired storytelling rather than actual historical transcription. I still see JS as a prophet and the Book of Abraham as scripture – just as the book of Job is scripture but may not have actually happened.

He was power hungry and felt no limits to his power. He could have anything or anyone he wanted.

Joseph does seem to test people’s loyalty. There is one story where he tells the men not to harm the wildlife except for eating and then later he shoots a squirrel and walks away. The men see this as a test and jump to skinning and cooking the squirrel. In other occasions when JS asked for a polygamous wife he wept that the individual had sufficient faith to pass the test and then he declined to take the wife. I do not believe JS to be a Con-man, yet being a prophet seems to have been a whole lot messier and experimental that I had previously supposed.

I do not feel that I can honestly get a temple recommend anymore or use the priesthood to perform ordinances (at least without the bishop knowing full well that I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or in the restoration) . That really hurts in some ways because I think the act of baptizing your own kids is something beautiful that is somewhat unique in our church. My wife pointed out though, that would I really want to baptize my kids if I felt that it wasn’t true (at least in the sense that the Church maintains it is).

Maybe, there are good threads here dealing with how little the interview actually asks of us and how there may be different approaches to honestly answering, “yes” to the belief questions. I have yet to baptize my kids and am hoping to do so without a TM, but I relish the opportunity to give annual father’s blessings. If in the act of giving my son the priesthood I am not giving him the power to act for God but am instead giving him responsibility, a part in long and shared family heritage, and a bonding experience with his Dad – What’s wrong with that?

The blessings that I have in this life come from God. I have found many of those blessings through my membership in the Church. I’ve had some wonderful spiritual experiences in my life that have led me to believe that there is a God out there who wants the best for us. He may not intervene as much as some people believe, but I believe that at times we can all see the hand of the Lord in our lives if we look hard enough. I have found God in my life and I believe that the Church is one way among many to find the nature of God and become closer to Him.

Wow, well said. I believe that is enough of a foundation for you to take your journey of analyzing and defining your relationship to God and your relationship to the church, that process is the only middle way that I know of – the individual way. :thumbup:

This is a good place to share. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Thanks Man,

Roy

Welcome.

Fwiw, we do not discourage dishonesty in any way. We encourage being true to yourself – but we believe that can be done honestly and with integrity for many, many people who have concerns and even huge issues with the Church while allowing them to participate as fully as they want to – up to and including temple attendance.

Fwiw, we do not discourage dishonesty in any way.

😯 — :think: — 😆

Thanks everyone. I really mean that.

Welcome man in the arena. Glad you’re here.

I really like Richard Bushman’s take on Joseph Smith (have you read Rough Stone Rolling?). He lays out the things we know, even the ugly or puzzling stuff, but he remains a faithful member with a respect and honor to JS and his legacy.

I find it inspiring to see how much Joseph accomplished in a short time frame, and even more inspiring that he is an interesting character, certainly not perfect. I like that God can work through imperfect people. That message is extremely important to me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I look forward to learning from your posts.