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  • #206751
    Anonymous
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    Just before I went to the temple yesterday, I had an altercation with the head moderator of LDS.net, who summarily rejected my suggestion to try to select more inclusive quotes when publishing a ‘quote of the day’. She had published a quote by Gordon B Hinckley about being active in promoting anti-gay legislation. After she rejected my suggestion, I asked to be removed from having an account on the site, and now my IP is banned — can’t even read the site. Nice.

    So with that in mind, I went to the temple, and really had a wonderful experience. As I posted before, I interpret the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as the predefined dogma that tells you what to do without proof and without questioning. In talking about this on this and other boards, most people believe that it was necessary to partake of the tree, because that is the way that Adam and Eve would receive ‘knowledge’.

    But that wasn’t the plan, nor does it say that in the temple. Specifically, Adam and Eve were to learn — gain knowledge — from their own experience to distinguish good from evil. The tree was the temptation — the short-cut, that by partaking of it, Adam and Eve might be as the ‘gods’ — immediately knowing good and evil. This, to me, indicates that there are two ways to learn good and evil: the Way of Mandate and Dogma: that we accept a predefined schema of everything we need to know, or the Way of Learning through Experience: where we know by our own experience to distinguish good and evil.

    When Eve asks Satan “Is there no other Way”, Satan, the liar, responds: “There is no other Way.” Then Eve partakes. I believe that Satan’s comment was a lie — there was another way, a more Excellent Way.

    I wonder for a moment if we can set aside the standard teaching that Adam and Eve were meant to partake of the fruit, and liken the scripture to ourselves. We have before us Scripture and all the words of the prophets from the beginning of time to today, or as much as has been published. This is the doctrinal “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”. If I were to catalog all the teachings provided in the Law and Prophets (down to today), the number of rules and regulations within the tree of knowledge of good and evil we have today is astounding. In fact, many of the very ardent rules and regulations of the Law no longer apply, and all the Prophets since Joseph Smith have published things today that no longer are taught.

    For many in the church, there is comfort in partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For the most part, the protection of a rigid rule system takes out the messiness that abiguity causes in life. But there is a more sinister side If, for example, I really feel uncomfortable about gay people, I can partake of the tree, finding quotes of the Prophet that support my position, and be perfectly happy in my choice. I’m perfectly justified in rejecting gay people and denying them the right, outside the church, to marry, because the Prophet said so. The same was the case for those who favored discrimination against blacks, until 1978.

    But this is not the More Excellent Way. If I learn from my own experience, and if I sit down with a black man and learn from him directly what it meant to be black in those days, I learn from my own experience that discrimination is evil. If I make a personal acquaintance with a gay daughter, and realize that because she cannot have a committed relationship, she may choose suicide as a result, I realize from my own experience that denying committed gay couples the right to marry is evil.

    leaving aside the sinister side of dogma, there is a more important side of learning through experience: that which we learn through experience is more strongly learned, and less likely to be upset by “truth” that is often in conflict with dogma.

    #254139
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Wayfarer, you did it again. You made me think again in a different way.

    I don’t know if I accept it yet. I need to think it through more.

    I find it interesting that going to the temple, listening to the same presentation, participating in the same ordinances

    can prompt us to consider looking at life & the gospel in new, inspiring ways. I think it was meant to be that way.

    I’m looking forward to go again. I need inspiration.

    Mike from Milton.

    #254140
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Did you get the “when will ban be lifted – NEVER!” message like I did?

    I also got banned for commenting on the quote section…but at least I made to a 100 some posts first, unlike your 3. :)

    Oh yeah, nice OP.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

    #254141
    Anonymous
    Guest

    cwald wrote:

    Did you get the “when will ban be lifted – NEVER!” message like I did?

    I also got banned for commenting on the quote section…but at least I made to a 100 some posts first, unlike your 3. :)


    It’s all rather surreal. I’ve posted the entire exchange elsewhere. I don’t know if the ban will be lifted — I don’t really care.

    I think to continue the original post thoughts…

    Seems to me like the original plan of salvation as presented by god would involve making mistakes: putting satan into the garden, not giving the man or woman any really guidance except don’t eat that fruit, which as we all know, for innocent children is like an invitation… My insight is that in this world mankind is supposed to make mistakes. In fact, it is by making mistakes that we really learn. Couple more applications:

    1. By making mistakes, we learn more deeply.

    2. By being flawed ourselves, we learn to set aside our arrogance as we ask for help, from each other, and from god/savior.

    3. By recognizing that we are all flawed, then it’s not so difficult to understand that a man can be flawed and be a prophet at the same time.

    4. The real purpose and challenge of life is to find truth amidst the errors and BS out there. It ain’t gonna be handed to you in a platter, and it isn’t found in the taxonomy of church policy and ‘doctrine’.

    I don’t know…

    #254142
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Very comforting, uplifting insights.

    #254143
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I kind of stopped going to the temple when my beliefs started crumbling. I went almost every week before then, but never felt like I got much out of it; it was a struggle to just avoid falling asleep when they dimmed the lights for the presentation. I was thinking about the endowment ceremony the other day though and found that the story and symbolism applies in a very profound way to what I’m going through now. I was thinking especially about wandering through the lone and dreary world, and rather than accept what is being taught there, holding out for further light and knowledge. Wayfarer took things a totally different direction than what I would have ever thought of, but that keeps things fresh and exciting. :)

    #254144
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Frankly, that’s why I love the temple so much. It works for me, mostly because I let my mind move away from everything whenever a thought hits me and just go with it until I’ve had some kind of epiphany. It doesn’t happen every time, but it happens quite frequently.

    Thanks for sharing, wayfarer. I also believe we need to embrace mistake-making and actually celebrate it as a chance to learn. I’m speaking about faith in Sacrament Meeting in two weeks, and I might weave that idea into my talk.

    #254145
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Oooh, nice post, wayfarer. It is interesting.

    However, it sounds like you are stating the more excellent way is we learn wisdom from our own experience. Does that reduce our dependence, then, on a Savior? Are you suggesting that through our own experience, we can save ourselves?

    #254146
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Heber13 wrote:

    Oooh, nice post, wayfarer. It is interesting.

    However, it sounds like you are stating the more excellent way is we learn wisdom from our own experience. Does that reduce our dependence, then, on a Savior? Are you suggesting that through our own experience, we can save ourselves?


    No and No. Far from what you’re suggesting — completely the opposite.

    there are two distinct statements:

    1. “If they yield to temptation, we shall provide a savior”

    2. “that they may know from their own experience to distinguish good from evil”

    The result of learning from experience is to gain true knowledge. Knowledge is not salvation. In fact, by making mistakes, our dependence on the savior becomes real. I never knew the savior until I had to recover from addiction. Although I had been a member all my life, redemption and grace only become real when you need it. If we live the perfectly controlled life, it’s hard to make that realization.

    God’s plan involved free will, with the inevitable consequence of messy lives, completely requiring the savior to bail them out. Satan’s plan was the plan of control and perfection — no would would make mistakes because no-one could, and thus no one would learn, and there would be no need for a savior.

    #254147
    Anonymous
    Guest

    This is what I like about our doctrine around the fall…it is not because of Adam that we blame our less than paradisaical environment we live in today. It was designed this way, and a Savior is provided…so that we may learn through experience.

    wayfarer wrote:

    If we live the perfectly controlled life, it’s hard to make that realization.

    That sounds right to me, we appreciate the Atonement more when we know we need it.

    #254148
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I like to think if the savior as my life-coach: ever providing meaningful experiences, sometimes painful ones, yet always there to help me through and find the lesson. I have felt this on nearly every tragedy.

    Except one: the Shoah. But that is another topic.

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